Femininity Honored

Visakha devi dasi

Canada (VNN) - This paper was presented by Visakha devi dasi at the Saranagati Farm Community Seminar located near Ashcroft, British Columbia, Canada on June 30, 1998. Submitted by Bhaktin Lori

sristi-sthiti-pralaya-sadhana-saktir eka

chayeva yasya bhuvanani bibharti durga

icchanurupam api yasya ca cestate sa

govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami

The external potency, maya, who is of the nature of the shadow of the

cit [spiritual] potency, is worshiped by all people as Durga, the creating, preserving and destroying agency of this mundane world. I adore the primeval Lord Govinda, in accordance with whose will Durga conducts herself

Brahma-samhita 5.44

Material nature, the external energy of the Supreme Lord, is also known as Durga, or the female energy that protects the great fort of this universe. The word Durga means fort. This universe is just like a great fort in which all the conditioned souls are kept, and they cannot leave it unless they are liberated by the mercy of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Durga is a confidential maidservant of Krishna, but she has to punish the conditioned souls by keeping them in this material world. How does she do this? Lord Krishna Himself explains her foremost technique: "Just try to understand the mighty strength of My maya in the shape of a woman, who by the mere movement of her eyebrows can keep even the greatest conquerors of the world under her grip" (SB 3.31.38). Maya or Durga's fort has many insurmountable walls, and for men the most insurmountable of them is their attraction to women. Of course, in actuality we are neither men nor women, for these designations refer only to the outer dress, the body. We are all actually Krishna's servants. However, heterosexual men in conditioned life are imprisoned in the fort of this material world by the form and behavior of beautiful women.

For devotees in Krishna consciousness, this is the familiar dark aspect of femininity, but it is not the only aspect. In fact it is the secondary, inferior aspect of this powerful energy. Srila Prabhupada explains that "Laksmi has two features: maya [or Durga] and the goddess of fortune; the same Laksmi according to position. Just like a government has got two departments: criminal department and civil department. So the government is the same, but there are two departments. This maya is criminal department, and Vaikuntha is civil department. Vaikuntha means there is no anxiety, and maya means always anxiety" (SB 5.6.6 lecture 11/28/76).

Today I'd like to explore with you the idea of restoring the force of femininity to its true sublime beauty.

1. Femininity and the Grihastha Asrama

In our traditional spiritual culture, girls were raised to become agents of Laksmi rather than Durga. These pure, vivacious, innocent, shy, and inwardly powerful young women were always welcome members of society because they, as Laksmidevi's servants, evoked the presence of Narayana for Laksmiji never leaves His side. Srila Prabhupada writes, "Kumaris, or unmarried girls untouched by the hand of any member of the opposite sex, are auspicious members of society. . . When thus protected, women as a class remain an always auspicious source of energy to man" (SB 4.21.4 purport). Kumaris did not manipulate or seduce or project hidden agendas onto anyone or anything. Being pure in eating, sleeping, fearing, and mating, they were pure in action. Being pure in action, they were pure in mind. And to the extent they were pure in mind, they desired to serve God. The core value of the kumaris was their desire to serve God.

When these kumaris married their homes became a fortress, but unlike Durga's fortress, which keeps conditioned souls in the material world, theirs protected conditioned souls from Durga's influence. Srila Prabhupada writes, "The bodily senses are considered plunderers of the fort of the body. The wife is supposed to be the commander of the fort, and therefore whenever there is an attack on the body by the senses, it is the wife who protects the body from being smashed" (SB 3.14.20). And: "One who is situated in household life and who systematically conquers his mind and five sense organs is like a king in his fortress who conquers his powerful enemies . . . The senses are considered very powerful enemies. As a king in a strong fortress can conquer powerful enemies, so a householder in grihastha-asrama, household life, can conquer the lusty desires of youth and be very secure when he takes vanaprastha and sannyasa" (SB 5.1.18).

Thus in the traditional grihastha asrama the husband protects the wife by keeping her and the family safe, spiritually on track, and provided for. Such a gentle man awakens and clarifies his wife's spiritual strength. And the wife also protects her husband and family from their own moods, excesses, vulnerabilities and other dangers of the inner world. Qualified women are essential for the success of the grihastha asrama. And a strong grihastha asrama is essential for the success of varnasrama dharma. And varnasrama dharma is necessary so that human society can progress back home, back to Godhead. "There are four social orders for cooperation in the endeavor for liberation from material existence. The orders of brahmacarya, or pious student life, household life with a wife, retired life

and renounced life all depend for successful advancement on the householder who lives with a wife" (SB 3.14.18). If the family unit is healthy, then society is healthy; when the family falls apart, society falls apart.

A Krishna conscious wife can remind her Krishna conscious husband of the best that is in him. She sees and can show him his own self-worth, as he shows her hers. Her surrender inspires his greatness and his greatness inspires her surrender. As his masculine spirit is evoked, her feminine one is; cared for and cared about, she is his solace and inspiration. Both her emotions and his spirit are honored and gradually husband and wife mature in spiritual realization.

2. Femininity and the Four Asramas

Without being trained in the purifying asrama of bramacharya, or celibate student life, a young man may become a womanizer--seeing women only as objects of his sensual desires. Or, by improper brahmachari training, he may become a woman hater--aware not of the positive feminine qualities a woman embodies but only of the distraction her body is to him. Lacking honesty and honor, this ill-fated brahmachari blames women for his own weakness. When such a person later enters the renounced order of sannyasa (generally he avoids the grihastha asrama), he is a repository of unrealized knowledge, he is unable to establish heartfelt relationships, and, although vacuous inwardly, outwardly he stubbornly refuses to see his own shortcomings. The very qualities that he needs to grow-femininity--he ignores or harshly condemns.

However, with proper brahmachari training a young man recognizes the dignity of femininity. In other words, he realizes and acknowledges the intrinsic worth of feminine qualities like mildness, compassion, warmth, tenderness, patience, kindness, tolerance, understanding of others, and nurturing.

When this brahmachari enters the grihastha asrama, his dominating male ego is tempered by his wife=D5s precious qualities of femininity. And as he matures he gradually internalizes those exalted feminine qualities. His realizations and humility increase during his decades in the grihastha asrama, while his sensuality decreases until it becomes nil and he enters the vanaprastha stage. Finally, when he accepts the renounced order of sannyasa, he has fully recognized and developed his own inner feminine life--of forgiveness, softness, nurturing, relatedness--and does not rely on his former wife to offer hers. (Although it is the exception, it should be noted that there are highly conscious men who can become mature sannyasis without the interim grihastha-vanaprastha experience.) Such a secure renouncer is not threatened by a woman's power but on the contrary, evokes it in Krishna consciousness by his dynamic Krishna conscious words and deeds. As he travels and is an example of Krishna consciousness, women other than his wife (whom he no longer sees) may respect and encourage him, and he in turn, respects and encourages them. When he sees men as well as women remembering and acting in their glorious position as servants of Srila Prabhupada, he, as a man of goodwill, is filled with happiness.

For an example of this mature stage of sannyasa we can remember how our Founder-Acarya was as hard as a thunderbolt (his masculine side)--kicking with boots on the heads of materialistic scientists, Mayavadis, pseudo-Christians, and sahajiyas; and when time, place and circumstance warranted it, he was also as soft as a rose (the feminine side)=D1having nurturing, loving exchanges with his followers, including women, children, and men. In fact, in the Supreme Personality of Godhead Himself, Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, we also see an example of masculine and feminine qualities: on one side He defeated the logicians, the impersonalists, the Buddhists, and the ruffians, and on the other side He tasted Radharani's love for Krishna. In Her mood He swooned at the sight of Jagannatha and at the sound of the Lord=D5s holy name. Srila Prabhupada writes, "Srimati Radharani is a tenderhearted feminine counterpart of the supreme whole, resembling the perfectional stage of the worldly feminine nature"

(SB 2.3.23 purport).

It is the will of Radha and Krishna that each of us, every woman, child,

and man, in every varna and asrama, be happy, whole, and successful. The

unspoken belief that someone else's success limits or threatens mine fails to allow others to shine and to allow me to shine fully too. Another's Krishna conscious success never robs you and me of this possibility. Quite the opposite. Their success is our success, if we allow ourselves to applaud instead of criticize. As eternal parts and parcels of Krishna originally we are all beautiful and powerful and strong. We deserve love and acceptance and support. We would all be glorious if we could only express who we are, for we are, each one of us, a portion of the Lord.

3. Feminine and Masculine Values

Both men and women have both masculine and feminine qualities, the masculine qualities usually predominating in men (with the feminine side subordinate), and feminine ones in women (with the masculine side subordinate). It's important to note that both qualities have assets and weaknesses which complement each other, and so, by the arrangement of the Lord, both are necessary for a balanced, healthy life in individuals, families, communities, and society. For example, a masculine asset is the power of analysis; a feminine weakness is a proneness to be misled. A weakness on the masculine side is insensitivity; a strength on the feminine side, soft-heartedness. Srila Prabhupada comments, "Women in general are unable to speculate like philosophers, but they are blessed by the Lord because they believe at once in the superiority and almightiness of the Lord, and thus they offer obeisances without reservation" (SB 1.8.20 purport). Srila Prabhupada also points out that philosophy without religion is mental speculation (the masculine side), while religion without philosophy is sentiment (the feminine). Both philosophy and religion are required. And either men or women can be too influenced by one or the other and thus overcome by either dry erudition or fanaticism. Balance is essential.

Overemphasis on masculine qualities such as rational analysis, authority

, control, competition, and power causes us, both men and women, to demean the softness, simplicity, and weakness of the feminine. By neglecting and denigrating these gentle and humbling aspects in each of us, by making the feminine seem trivial, our lives become progressively more rigid, sterile, inert, and empty. We unconsciously allow authority to eclipse feeling, prestige and adoration to eclipse warmth and authenticity. The feminine qualities of nurturing and compassion perish when pitted against the masculine lust for power. Our most noble spiritual path, when denied feminine values, degenerates to a prideful quest for distinction. And that quest destroys relationships and evokes hypocrisy rather than devotion.

Similarly, achievements created at the cost of our capacity for feeling,

warmth, contentment, and serenity have limited value. If we invalidate the spiritual feminine principle it may be so destroyed that even women will lose touch with it. It is time to bravely and without sensuality affirm the feminine, to heal the wounds of our spiritual woman and at the same time contribute to the healing of our children and our society. Let us move from a place of arrogant weakness to one of humble strength.

The more brusque of men will cast off this appeal as sentiment and remain fixed in their ways. Yet credit is due them, for often their service has seen millions of books distributed, has seen thousands of devotees initiated, and has fathered hundreds of temples. But without their nurturing mother, without feminine tenderness, these offspring are not whole. They are imbalanced. To become healthy we must allow the feminine to reclaim its natural place. A child is comforted when father and mother are present. Let us all be comforted by the masculine and feminine working together.

4. Femininity and Children

In a letter to Arundhati dated July 30th,1972, Srila Prabhupada wrote:

"For you, child-worship is more important than deity-worship. If you cannot spend time with him [your son], then stop the duties of pujari. . . These children are given to us by Krishna, they are Vaisnavas and we must be very careful to protect them. These are not ordinary children, they are Vaikuntha children, and we are very fortunate we can give them chance to advance further in Krishna Consciousness. That is very great responsibility, do not neglect it or be confused. Your duty is very clear."

What could be more important for the future of our world than that we raise happy and well-adjusted, empowered children? If the relationship between parents--especially the mother--and children is the relationship Krishna intended it to be, then children will grow up to know that neither money nor fame nor prestige nor power is nearly as important as a life lived for a noble purpose. And there is no greater nobility than to live in Krishna consciousness, that is, with knowledge, with renunciation, with respect for all living things, and with a mood of devotion to Lord. The best possible heritage for a child is this clean consciousness. "To become a pure devotee of Lord Krishna, two things are very much essential, namely having a chance to be born in the family of a devotee and having the blessings of a bona fide spiritual master" (SB 2.4.1 purport).

Parents who attempt to raise their children in Krishna consciousness are

doing an incredibly difficult and demanding service which requires--especially of the mother--almost endless selflessness, patience, deep listening, and understanding. Perhaps only they know the physical, emotional, and spiritual energy it takes to do this service well. Perhaps raising a happy Krishna conscious child takes at least as much focus, sensitivity, and intelligence as any other service. Children who receive respect and patience learn to respect and be patient. Such loved children find their own spiritual strength and genius. The personalities of their mothers are the space that prepares them psychologically and spiritually to become Krishna conscious.

We did not create our children; Krishna did. And it's primarily their mothers who supervise their development; the children are their own beings and their mother gives them the environment to realize themselves. Who among us dares to minimize a mother's service to our society?

5. Femininity and Women Today - Part I

Although we may be oblivious of it, it is a documented fact that expectations have an extraordinary influence on us. Children who are told that they are underperfomers underperform. Men who are told that they are inferior lose their self-esteem. So, logically, what do you suppose happens to women who are told that they are less intelligent, lusty, envious, untrustworthy sense gratifiers with

fox-like hearts? Such expectations draw out the Durga in a woman, defeat her, and stifle her confidence and good intentions. She herself will wonder about her integrity and character. Every time a woman is denied an opportunity because she is a woman, every time she's told she's not good enough because she's a woman, that's she's an agent of maya, she is massacred; her feminine strength is denied and her spiritual potential squelched. Such denials and negativity have poisoned our past and toxify the present.

By contrast, tell women that among them Krishna is "fame, fortune, fine speech, memory, intelligence, steadfastness and patience" (Bg 10.34) and the power of such positive expectations will draw out those qualities. Tell them that they are the natural repository of warmth, kindness, caring, relatedness, nurturing, compassion, gentleness, forgiveness, love, and devotion, and these will blossom forth from within them. Srila Prabhupada writes, "Women in general, being very simple at heart, can very easily take to Krishna consciousness, and when they develop love of Krishna they can easily get liberation from the clutches of maya, which are very difficult for even so-called intelligent and learned men to surpass"

(KB Ch 23). Do not ignore the feminine; do not tear her down. Help her a little and she will fly. Her life is meant to be used in the service of the greatest and most holy cause.

When women are reading and chanting, hearing, inquiring, speaking, and

following Srila Prabhupada in spirit; when they are offering their mind, body, and words in the service of Krishna; they are a great blessing to this spiritual movement and to the world.

With this in mind I propose that the women in our society be forevermore seen as agents of Laksmidevi rather than Durga. Even if women, individually or collectively, are presently unworthy of this vision, simply by being seen in this way the vestiges of Durga that dwell within them will soften, melt, and finally be Laksmi-ized. The Krishna conscious wisdom of the Vaisnavas and Vaisnavis, their patience, their courtesy and respect will evoke Laksmi-like behavior in women. With Laksmi-Narayana=D5s illuminating presence, Durga will exit.

6. Femininity and Women Today - Part II

It is often women themselves who make the world even harder for other women, perhaps in their attempt to survive in our imbalanced world. These women may take one of two stances: in one they say, "I am strong like a man. I view the feminine as weak and unworthy, unnecessary and unimportant; it is the masculine that is glamorous and meaningful." To such a woman, feminine Krishna conscious emotion is a weakness; masculine lack of emotion is a strength. Thus she repudiates feeling or love and finds a masculine niche for her feminine powers. But this woman who succeeds at the expense of her Krishna conscious tenderness does not succeed. Her denial of spiritual emotion through suppression or withdrawal is a weak move, not a courageous one.

Krishna Himself values Krishna conscious emotion. He says, "When I was away from Draupadi, she cried with the words 'He Govinda!" This call for Me has put Me in her debt, and that indebtedness is gradually increasing in My heart" (NoD Ch 21). So, Krishna conscious feelings are not less important than achievements, and a woman who honors her feelings for Krishna and Srila Prabhupada and their teachings will find others also honoring them. After all is said and done, our final goal is the most sublime of all possible feelings: to love Krishna unconditionally.

The second stance a woman may take says "I am in a traditional woman's role as a housewife, mother, cook, seamstress, etc., and all other women should also be in a traditional role." Thus she holds back women who desire unconventional services, even though these women feel drawn to those nontraditional roles and are qualified for them. In the same mood, this second type of woman insists that women should not stand near the Deities in the temple room, sing for Them, or give lectures, even though Srila Prabhupada himself gave directions otherwise. When Srila Prabhupada first established the Governing Body Commission (GBC), he personally appointed two women--Govinda dasi and Yamuna--to be on it. And he often asked his women disciples, like Malati, Hemavati, Kausala, and Yamuna, to speak and to sing. There is also precedent from the Srimad Bhagavatam for women to precede men: "Suta Goswami said: Thereafter the Pandavas, desiring to deliver water to the dead relatives who had desired it, went to the Ganges with Draupadi. The ladies walked in front"

(SB 1.8.1).

In response to these two stances, let us say this: when Krishna conscious women go into the world to serve Srila Prabhupada with an authentic balance of intelligence with compassion, every woman can show her support, extend her generosity and her enthusiasm. There cannot be too many glorious women, whether in the home or out. Our society is crying for them. These glorious women can only help us. They treat others with dignity; without compromise they respect themselves and they respect others. They honor each and every devotee. In their association our hearts are harmonized and uplifted. Let us seriously support others reaching for unmotivated, uninterrupted devotional service to the Supreme Lord, whether their reach is from the home or temple or community or society.

And in response to these stances, let us also say this: devotees encourage Krishna consciousness in one another. We=D5re meant to do this and it increases the Krishna consciousness within us. We fail in our deepest responsibility to Krishna and to ourselves each time we discourage the Krishna conscious efforts of another devotee or allow ourselves to become discouraged in our Krishna conscious efforts. Our joy in seeing a Vaisnavi doing the service she desires for the pleasure of the Lord demonstrates our willingness to relinquish the petty and negative preoccupations that stand in the way of our Krishna consciousness. This beautiful, positive attitude lifts a heavy burden from our minds and hearts and allows a more joyful life to emerge.

When a woman touches the magnificent spiritual possibilities within herself, the internal and external forces that would limit those possibilities hold less and less sway over her. When she is very clear that she wants to be glorious for Srila Prabhupada=D5s pleasure, and that she has permission to be femininely powerful in Krishna consciousness, she will be so. And we will all benefit.

7. Femininity and Aging

Age is magnificent if we take our spiritual lives seriously. In age we can reflect with joy on the richness of the life we have lived. What we have experienced, all we have done, whatever great thoughts we may have had, and all we have suffered, all this is not lost, though it is past, and no power on earth can take this wealth from us. Instead of the uncertain future that youth face, we have the reality of a lifetime of growth in devotion behind us.

The longer we live, the more time we have to pursue the things that make life meaningful. The older we get the more buoyant we become=D1from fewer anxieties, from more realizations, and from shedding meaningless things and negative preoccupations. We become not harder with age but softer, more gentle. We are blessed with quieting senses, a clear mind, and steady intelligence.

While sannyasis travel to preach the science of Krishna consciousness, mature Krishna conscious women--perhaps grandmothers now--remain in the community to exemplify and pass on the eternal family tradition of Krishna consciousness. The children of the community naturally imbibe the Krishna conscious mood of these enlightened ladies; the kumaris become wise from their wisdom; the brahmacharis respect them without sensual innuendos, the grihasthas feel blessed by their sobering, joyful presence. And on their side, these ladies, who form the foundation of the community, know that they have gained the greatest gain, Krishna consciousness.

Conclusion

In his purport to text twenty-seven of chapter nine in the First Canto of Srimad Bhagavatam, Srila Prabhupada writes: "As far as the women class are concerned, they are accepted as a power of inspiration for men. As such, women are more powerful than men."

In other words, that which inspires a person is more powerful than the person. Therefore, as Srila Prabhupada says, women are more powerful than men. The pages of Srimad Bhagavatam and Mahabharata offer ample examples

of this: due to Devahuti=D5s feminine power, Kardama Muni was inspired to create an incredibly magnificent palace in the sky; due to Sukanya's feminine power, Cyavana Muni transformed his aged, deformed body into that of a young man; due to Gandhari=D5s feminine power, her eldest son, Duryodhana, received a body impervious to weapons. Due to Savitri's feminine power, her husband Satyavan was rescued from death. Due to Cintamini's inspiration, Bilvamangala Thakur gave up material life and completely devoted himself to Krishna. Due to the inspiration of Sudama Brahmana's wife, Sudama Brahmana went to Dwaraka and was reunited with his friend, Krishna. This is the example of the Krishna conscious masculine-feminine dynamic: the Krishna conscious husband cares for his Krishna conscious wife and she inspires him in Krishna consciousness. Srila Prabhupada says, "The protection of women maintains the chastity of society, by which we can get a good generation for peace, tranquility and progress of life" (SB 1.8.5 purport).

However, we may note with caution that Krishna conscious feminine power can create havoc in the lives of those who lack Krishna consciousness: the unscrupulous Kauravas perished due to their dishonoring Draupadi.

Honor femininity. Failing to do so has created and will continue to create havoc. Failing to do so inspires edicts instead of dialogues, resolutions instead of relationships, indifference instead of intimacy. This failing costs us our laksmi, our members, and our enthusiasm. It renders us unable to represent Srila Prabhupada and to attract Radha Krishna. Our external achievements, however grandiose, ring hollow.

Want each woman to grow, more each passing day, into the person Krishna would have her be. Enthuse her to be inspired by Laksmi. Remind her of her worth. She is a servant from the spiritual world. In her heart lies Krishna. And she is here to love Him. Help her lay down her false ego that she might be used as a connecting link between this material world and the spiritual one. Help her take responsibility for her own state of mind; remind her that, whatever the circumstances, she is not a victim, but a heroine. Help her become true to her principles and loyalties, and to expect the causeless mercy of Krishna.

We are all souls that have nothing to do with the physical world; we are nonmaterial, nonphysical. We are God=D5s precious parts, meant to do His service. From following the regulative principles and from the daily spiritual practices of japa meditation, reading, associating with devotees, honoring prasad, and engaging in all other varieties of devotional service, our spirituality is revived. At that time we--women, children, and men--will regain our normal position in the Lord=D5s pleasure-giving, feminine potency.

Thank you.

"Networking people to resources"

Femininity Honored discussion facilitated by Visakha dasi with members of the Saranagati Farm Community on 6-30-98

[Note: Visakha dasi is abbreviated to V: and discussion participants are abbreviated to D:]

V: So we were hoping that this paper would generate some discussion, and especially that the discussion would go towards practical proposals as far as--if we can recognize there's a problem-as far as rectifying that problem in practical down to earth, day to day ways. In fact, one of the people that I was mentioning--I gave the paper here the night before-and considered it finished-and one of my Godsisters said that they had so much wonderful [indistinguishable]-so many wonderful presentations, but very often they don't manifest sometimes in day to day changes and improvements. So we were hoping that the same fate is not going to happen to this issue, because it certainly in my mind addresses the picture.

So perhaps if there is some discussion....

D: I very much appreciate your insight in many ways, and it brings me to the realization that I had also in ISKCON many years ago as a man, that I find that as we enter devotional service we always enter on a neophyte platform, and in one sense we are very vulnerable, because we're like not really sure about ourselves, and we have many faults, we have no self-esteem literally speaking, when we are in the neophyte fallen condition, you can say, and we become subjected to a lot of exploitation on the plea of spiritual leadership. What I'm saying is that very often leaders who are not experienced in Krishna Consciousness will use various psychological techniques--like fear. So in this way, if you have some material desires or you're not a pure devotee and you have some hankering or some needs, and you're not careful about them, then, you cannot fulfill them. Then you're subject to a lot of manipulation that is just like you're saying, it's counterproductive for spiritual growth. But what I find, is by living in a place like Saranagati, where you are living independently, you're on your own, you have your land, you have your house, you are a little bit a master of your destiny. If you make a mistake it's your responsibility. If you do successful thing you are also responsible for them. You don't neglect the spritual leadership that Prabhupada gives, but it gives you a little protection from a lot of-well, like I said-it gives you freedom to be more realistic about what you can offer as devotional service to Prabhupada. So what I find is true for the common devotee but it's also for all the classes of society if you just live in a brahminical culture like in the temple, and the emphasis is on spiritual eliticism-I don't know if that is the right word-but you are not able to---if you don't have all the other elements of the varnashrama community-you always have other-a leader, or common devotees-you can have a way to fulfill you needs-physical, emotional, and all the other ones-so what I'm saying-you're looking for solutions-so all I'm proposing is that the leaders of our movement should look more and more into developing varnashrama communities like this one. Not that they have to be centralized-with an ISKCON guru, a leader and president over everyone.....there has to be more freedom for everybody to exercise their own individuality. In this way it gives-like you're saying-it gives more strength. That is my realization about Saranagati-it gives you-it puts you at a distance from exploitative people or persons. So all I'm saying is that people will benefit--our ISKCON society has to execute Prabhupada's full desires, which was-what he did and what he wanted--establishing Varnashram communities. I think it's essential. If that is not emphasized, then it will be like it is now-a lot of doubt, a lot of confusion about spiritual leadership, a lot of dissension, a lot of confusion. And unless you have all the complete program Prabhupada wanted, the Varnashrama system, then it will remain like that, because it is not fulfilled-we didn't fulfill Prabhupada's complete desire. So, that's all I have to say....my little realization we have in Saranagati-is that this is very helpful to live like this. It gives us more time and more peace of mind to really start the day.....so I think one devotee spoke about the ladies and their problems. Also a lot of men--I think it is the same way-they can't tolerate a lot of -it is really the same thing...

V: Prabhupada wrote a letter to Karandhar in I think 1977. Karandhara was trying to establish a kind of bureaucratic ISKCON. And Prabhupada didn't want that at all-he wanted his temples to be independent.

D: The way men bramacharis and people who are celibate--not that they are bramacharis-I mean the men wearing saffron-the way they are looking at the women, and the women are looking at the men. This is in Mayapura-the Holy Dhama-and one person was making the comment that there is a mechanism within ISKCON by which this behavior was conducted, although...[indistinguishable]....evolved within ISKCON. So this is one area that the leaders definitely have to look at, is the mechanism whereby men and women can properly associate, especially if they have that desire, and another mechanism that's definitely needed for our young recruits, to very realistically enter ISKCON also, because at the moment--after all, it's not like we're recruiting little children from the streets. We're recruiting adults-usually the case is that their senses are on fire-and they need to learn to make an honest adjustment, because it's a struggle to contend with. And so, these kinds of tactics-of learning to address how to integrate men and women beyond the point sometimes of...[indistinguishable] that will not be unfavorable.

V: That's a good challenge. In the traditional system the children were trained as bramacharyas at a very young age so it was imbibed within them. So as you say, when they come so late in life, when their senses are on fire, it is very difficult....

D: Especially the fact that-I was discussing that point with one person today, when you come to Krishna consciousness at that age, up in those teenage years, in the early twenties, we're actually searching-we're searching for something--we want to call that something the truth. And at a certain point in life we are ready to pay any price there is to find that. Sometimes we don't understand-that we-expect too much of ourselves-for example, someone may wear saffron but he may not be honest with himself to identify the fact that he probably shouldn't be wearing that saffron-he might be exhibiting eccentric fanatical behavior to keep that cloth....

D: What about this thing being established for example that a book distributor have a certain amount of courses and a certain amount of training before they go out and distribute books? What if the bhakta leaders and the bramacharis had a mandatory training course that included in the honor of the feminine? Because I think what Ghosa Thakura was talking about how in the first few years you're totally in Maya, a lot of men develop their ideas dishonoring the feminine from their bhakta and bramacharya instructors who themselves were all impersonal. Who can approach?...would that be a regional issue or a GBC issue to have training for bhaktas or bramacharyas being versed in this balanced view?

V: Well, it sounds very much like a GBC issue, an international issue.

D: So far there's been a lot of discussion about what the leadership of our movement can do and one of the things that I've been thinking about recently is that each individual makes up the International Society and that we can't always-I definitely see the benefit of giving the responsibility of leadership to do these things--but I also see that it's imperative that the individuals, that we have the individual communities also contribute to educating each other and discussing these things or else the-we're a society that should not be completely dependent on the leadership and...[indistinguishable]...establish the process of Istaghosti-this would be a very good topic to discuss on a board meeting within a setting like that. And with that kind of a setting set up so we can continually question and discuss within our individual communities and maintain our findings. Because if we continually look to the leadership to make changes, then it won't ever happen.

D: I was just thinking in relationship to your point about the negative attitude towards women and I was recalling this one letter given in the Science of Self Realization that Srila Prabhupada wrote one woman the men met on Sankirtana-she expressed [that] the men seemed very negative and Prabhupada said that she should forgive them because they are in a noble cause and they are neophytes. And I know things like that in this regard, because in a neophyte stage when Prabhupada is trying to protect his fragile creepers if we become negative. But I think the problem is that in this society not sometimes, but in many circumstances, negativity tends to be taken as spiritual advancement, and that is not spiritual advancement to be very negative. So it should actually be seen as a very neophyte quality.

V: So neophyte means the beginning. One progresses beyond that.

D: I'd like to speak on this part - page one of part five: Femininity and Women Today-Part I. It says here that "Although we may be oblivious of it, it is a documented fact that expectations have an extraordinary influence on us. Children who are told that they are underperformers underperform. Men who are told that they are inferior lose their self-esteem. So, logically, what do you suppose happens to women who are told that they are less intelligent, lusty, envious, untrustworthy sense gratifiers with fox-like hearts? Such expectations draw out the Durga in a woman, defeat her, and stifle her confidence and good intentions." In discussions that I've had in those areas, often it's well-with men, and sometimes women-they say, well, I can bring every single quality listed there-I can find in Srimad Bhagavatam, Bhagavad-gita. And the answer that I can find suitable is that if a woman acts lustful, envious of each other, is into sense gratification, whose heart is falselike, in other words a woman who is drawing those Durga qualities-who are in fact what Prabhupada called less intelligent, but it's not referring to woman whose chastity, whose humility, whose gentleness, whose soft-heartedness are striving to serve Krishna. So it is a fact that if one discredits a woman whose intention is to serve Krishna, the end result will be that she will be discouraged. On the other hand, if those qualities are not put upon those who have good intentions that she will definitely be encouraged in that way. So she won't be an agent of Maya. However, these descriptions are given in the scriptures just through born men-the danger of women acting lustfully, acting enviously-the sense gratifying stage of attitude. And therefore that woman who dresses unchastely is actually lusty. As the Bhagavatam describes, not one who is trying to serve Krishna according to this direction.

V: That is the definition of intelligence is to discriminate. So whether they fit this description or not, but as far as men using the Bhagavatam to degrade women as a class is a disservice. And women can respond-we just read a verse-In this age--mandah sumanda-matayoh - Men have but short lives so the less intelligent are always disturbed.

D: You mentioned that the devotees develop a kind of negative consciousmess for the opposite sex and they also have difficulty establishing meaningful relationships. One observation I've seen....[indistinguishable]...the path of bhakti marg or the path of renunciation.....[indistinguishable]...very cold countenance in the personality.....[indistinguishable]....you try to communicate with them on a meaningful basis and you see that person -they end up becoming dissatisfied-we have a very practical example here of one sanyasi who was dissatisfied with grhasta life-took sanyasa....[indistinguishable].....and seemed that his relationships.....[indistinguishable].....

V: Yeah...that's a very difficult path, the path of renunciation. We see in the household ashram there are so many attachments that create the pain when the attachments are broken either from death or disagreement. And in the renounced path there are also so many problems from loneliness and lack of companionship. So whichever way we turn, the only place to turn to ultimately is Krishna. Both angles have problems.

D: Yes. I see within myself that the real solution is through Krishna consciousness and to develop Vaishnava qualities in....[indistinguishable]...Some of the qualities you mentioned as family life I'd say they are Vaishnava qualities.....[indistinguishable].....mildness....santa, peacefulness. Are these feminine qualities or Vaishnava qualities?

V: Well, if we study Radha-Krishna, we find that Krishna kills the demons. We don't find Radharani killing the demons. If the devotees approach Radharani so that she will introduce them to Krishna, once she introduces them there is no way that He can refuse them. She has invited them with His compassion. Thus Krishna came as Lord Caitanya-so compassionate because He was in the mood of Radharani.

D: You mentioned that as the grihasta matures, his sensuality becomes miffed. I was just wondering what the definition of sensuality is on that platform and is there a spiritual quality to match that or is that just a negative [indistinguishable]?

V: What I meant in that part--I was thinking of Prabhupada, that when he saw his female disciples he didn't see them in a sensual way at all. He saw them as servants of Krishna. And so, when, for instance, there was a play involving the women, and some of the sanyasis objected to having to watch these women perform, and he was in his room hearing their objection after the play--this was in Manhattan Temple--he was holding a rose, and he said he could see this rose as something very pleasurable for yourself or you could see it as an offering to Krishna. So in the same way you should see women, not as something pleasurable for ourself, but as an offering to the Lord. So in that way our sensuality in terms of sense pleasure, sense gratification--seeing everything, including that, as the Lord's creation and something that can be pleasing to the Lord in some way.

D: I'd like to elaborate a little bit on what this young woman was saying about training--a different way of thinking. I'm not sure what can be done now for the adult men in our movement--I don't know exactly. But one thing we can do that's practical as parents--mothers and fathers--is training our own kids. You know, our own children to have more respect for women and to see them in a different light. Because I've known alot of men--especially the mother--it seems like the mother has the influence--has trained her sons to be especially respectful. And they ended up being wonderful husbands that could help their wives. So these kids are going to be grown up before we know it. And I think it's really important that parents today, you know, to take that seriously.

V: I live in New Dvaraka, and one thing that I've noticed, they have the Youth Ashram--Vaishnava Youth Ashram--with one for men and one for women--so somehow or other--it's mystical to me--that these men who live in the Youth Ashram who came through the Gurukula system, who...[indistinguishable].....someow they're very respectful to women. It's kind of amazing. They don't look down upon women. They don't make you feel--you know--foxlike hearts and lust and enviousness, and all that business. So there is some hope for our future.

D: But often--even in the karmi world--we see certain areas--where men are very respectful to women--that they are respectful--I'm not saying it is necessarily the case in Los Angeles--but often respect can be given for a human agenda or ultimate purpose of wanting to enjoy them. So--respect has to be done in a sense of her chastity, because of her devotion. Because of her--not because--I want to enjoy her because if I'm nice to her and I give her compliments and I respect her I'll be able to enjoy her later. See, sometimes it's the subtle kind of respect.... So training them to respect their chastity, their quality--not their lustful appearance in order to enjoy them after.

V: And also training the women to be able....

D: To be chaste...

V: ....and to also have the intuition that someone's being respectful, but is there a hidden agenda--is there exploitation and pseudo respect?

D: ....[indistinguishable]...that Krishna Devata was making that in one sense you can make a proposal to the GBC and they might make some proposal or legislation, but legislation won't actually change things. ... legislation....I think it really has to go on a community level. And I know one personal experience here that I find......[indistinguishable].....is istaghostis. ......[indistinguishable].....At istaghostis.....[indistinguishable]....where everyone has opportunities to speak......[indistinguishable].....especially women like Vishakha speak.....[indistinguishable]....and personally I found that helped me to develop a lot of respect for people in the community--especially the women--by hearing their realizations and their experiences in Krishna consciousness --I think things like that really help to change the community consciousness on a local grass roots level.

V: There is a wonderful pastime that Yamuna told me which is related to that. She was among the first group that went to London--there was six devotees--grihasta couples--so along the way they stopped in Montreal. And they were personally trained by Prabhupada in harinama--how to do harinama in the streets. And it happened that it was Prabhupada's Vyasapuja--during their stop there. So, as is the custom for Vyasapuja, each and every devotee spoke to glorify Srila Prabhupada. And they spoke in the hierarchy--you know, the President first and then the Vice President and so on and so forth. And the last person to speak was a new bhakta who spent his day rolling chapatis in the kitchen. And he spoke with such feeling--such appreciation for Prabhupada that Prabhupada began to cry. So in that way the person who may be in the dark corners, whom we never hear from, may have some very profound feeling that we can all learn from.

D: It's occurred to me that the grass roots approach to dealing with our problems is always better......[indistinguishable]....But I think it would really be helpful for experienced communities to write about their experiences--for instance, the talking stick....[indistinguishable].....and develop respect--ways that the kids--young people in Los Angeles.....[indistinguishable].....I think sometimes stories--I know there are alot of stories about Krishna consciousness--and those stories are a way of preaching to people--better than sometimes a preaching--straight preaching.

D: I just wanted to say that I found the one section of the paper that talks about the woman's role when she's full--or just aging in general. I found that to be very poetic and inspiring to listen to. And by seeing that you have that complete vision of the role of women in general in society. Automatically....[indistinguishable]......Commenting on the original point that Ghosh Thakura made about community living. I think that alot of the perverted ideas are generally within kind of artificial ashram living conditions. My experience here has been that devotees kind of.....[indistinguishable]....begin to relate more as people. And automatically the relationships and attitudes become more real and balanced and normal.

V: I've certainly--I've just been here a brief time--but they certainly seem real and balanced and normal to me.

D: .....[indistinguishable].....In Russia.....Gopal Krishna Maharaja.....[indistinguishable].....we were......so we were asking questions--can the man keep the life of--does the wife always get the baby......"No".....We were jumping....[laughter]. Since this I learned a lot. But it seems for me.....talk about men and women in society.....try to prove that they're not this bad....but most important.....for myself.......acintya bheda bheda tattva.....like same but different.......but important that they have different body.....but it's like......you have to put love together.....[indistinguishable]

V: Yeah, you can also compare it to a bird. A bird has two wings..[indistinguishable]....and similarly, in the grihasta ashram, the husband and wife have a vital role.

D: I think a lot of problems stem too from "nirvishesha sunyavadi"--impersonalism and voidism--even after so many years we still haven''t realized that Krishna is the Supreme Personality of Godhead--He is a sentient human being, what to speak of realizing that the person next to me is also a sentient being.....[indistinguishable]

D: Krishna Kanta made the point that--like there are women who don't fit into these categories of these negative qualities--foxlike and whatnot. So if, as you were saying, if devotee men who are all women in that category--it's actually an offense--you were talking yesterday in the Bhagavatam class about blaspheming devotees--and you said to call a thief a thief is not blasphemy--but if someone is not a thief and you call them a thief that is actually one of the ten offenses--of blaspheming devotees. So it's actually very harmful for the men to look at chaste women who are serving Krishna--if they look at them in this negative way--they are actually committing one of the ten offenses and it will block their own development as well as the women that are discouraged.

D: As far as I understood you in that paper, there is a statement that making man feel inferior--it causes a lower self esteem. Now, would you think that that would be of any kind of an issue in ISKCON or within us, and what would be the causes of--you know, making a man feel inferior in order to lower his self esteem to be weaker? Because Ghosa Thakura Prabhu was saying how even the man feels very weak. Could that be one of the processes that we may be doing wrong?

V: Actually there was a study done on--a documented study done on children. And they had a group of children who were told very clearly that they were underperformers. And they underperformed. And they took those same children and gave them all sorts of encouragement and then they performed rather normally or above normal. So in that way--that''s why I said--it was actually a study done. So, similarly, in terms of men who are told they are inferior--at least in America the black people were told for hundreds of years how they were inferior and that left all kinds of emotional problems. So I was actually referring to the nondevotee context, but certainly it applies also to devotees who have somehow--if the men are made to feel weak or ineffective by leaders that certainly will also affect their psychological position and be detrimental to the society and to themselves.

D: So how we should as women maybe act towards men? In that sense--encourage their service or--they're right in every way? [laughter]

V: No, we should treat them the way we would like to be treated.

D: So, you're saying that because the men in ISKCON are being disempowered both within ISKCON and without by society at large, that could be a cause of some of the behavior that they're manifesting towards women--their disempowering behavior towards women?

V: I wasn't actually saying that but that could be...[indistinguishable]

D: I was trying to figure out......

V: No this sentence here actually relates to nondevotees--I mean I wrote it with nondevotees in mind, but certainly....[indistinguishable].

D: So that gets back to leadership and role modeling--to empowerment--so that they are not dumping on others, right?

V: And again, I would like to repeat Prabhupada's letter to Karandhar--he says that "each and every devotee should feel his individual worth, his spontaneity and his voluntary desire to serve Krishna in some way." That was a landmark letter that every devotee should be aware of.

D: ...[[indistinguishable].....a man who makes another man lower.....I think it's often due to a personal insecurity--an effort to maintain his own prestige and distinction by putting negative energy on others. And it's all kind of a negative mentality--one gets energy by like taking energy out of others--so rather than encouraging people we're trying to take the energy out of people. I know this one devotee named Gohita--very funny devotee--he's in San Diego somewhere now--there was one incident in the Vancouver Temple--with a bramachari--he was really mean toward a grihasta--[indistinguishable]....call Gohita--so he jumped up, so the devotee had to hold him--he had his arms around the devotee's neck--Gohita was holding this devotee....[indistinguishable]....and he said, "Don't worry Prabhu, we all love you" and he gave him a big kiss on his cheek [laughter] And he was like totally disarmed!

V: Very creative.

D: Like she was asking about how one should treat anybody else. And there is no archetypal system for treating anybody that way. It's like prescribing medicine for some mundane symptom or something. It'll suppress somebody's symptom and you want spontaneity in that situation.

V: Yeah, it's true, relationships cannot be regulated. Relationship means it comes from the heart. What's the use of this resolution for this or that? It has to be evoked.

D: How is the sexuality between like the children in our society who are growing up within ISKCON compared to the adults, because as adults we have been greatly affected without from childhood in the karmi society as far as sexuality and objects of sense gratification, etc. I mean, that's deep conditioning for the adults. How have the children.....?

D: I can answer that a little bit. I think we've had some pretty extreme results.....[indistinguishable]....people are reacting in extremes......[indistinguishable].....sometimes children were referred to as "stoolbags." Other women--the women that I remember growing up around really looked drained and very, very depressed--very sad, you know......I mean the type of things that we as children would hear in Bhagavatam class all the time--women this, and members of the gurukula were preached to about not having illicit sex--I was five years old--I said "okay" [laughter] When we got older though--just hearing alot of very negative things about men and women relating. We were raised in like separate--at least I was raised separately--then all of a sudden after sixth grade, after having a super strict--then the gurukula ended where I was, so I went to public school, which was completely the opposite. I was like....[indistinguishable]....just having to be thrust into the material environment without having healthy models for how men and women should be treated. Alot of people reacted differently--some girls became very sexually active--and some went the opposite--thinking that these people were just artificially restricted. And other people weren't able to integrate into society at all. I know people that were rigid--very, you know, very suppressed people. A lot of boys, also--have very imbalanced ways of treating and dealing with women. A lot of times they can just really get into blaming people instead of taking responsibility for themselves. That they've been taught a lot of times to blame others--men and women especially--for their own problems, for not being able to control themselves or....[indistinguishable].....So I think as time is progressing things have been changing and different kids have come to different degrees-a lot of kids also were sexually molested. Besides the warp of the view of the male and the female they got-a lot of them were sexually molested-a lot of men beat their wives....[indistinguishable]....There were all kinds of real powerful ......[indistinguishable]....Despite all these negative things though I think people are feeling themselves and learning as much as they can for the most and balancing their lives out--everybody had a different experience--but, we're all balancing our lives out--and trying to use these things.....and also reading Krishna conscious philosophy for themselves, as opposed to the way we were taught it. I found it very different. Just going through Srila Prabhupada's books and reading what he is saying is different for myself as opposed to how I heard it interpreted in Srimad Bhagavatam class in the morning or by my teachers. That is one interpretation......

D: Well, we talked about growing up in a society that women were seen as sense objects and such, but in a society that discourages men from getting married until they're about to bloop--I mean there's different extremes of that, but

there's definitely alot of Bhagavatam discussions like that. And, so if men are discouraged from getting married until they're so sexually frustrated that they have to, then it means that the logical train of thought would be that women are there to satisfy sexual desire. So we actually have set up a society--not across the board but in a lot of ways--that does set up the marriage structure as a way to satisfy sexual desires rather than for Krishna conscious children. And we haven't done the children in our society--so we can see that the boys who haven't been taken responsibility for for a lot of years also don't know how to take responsibility for their own children and their own families. So a lot of things are continuing. And so it is definitely a discussion that needs to happen with the whole society, or else it's just going to perpetuate--the children will continue to not be protected and the women will continue to not be protected.

D: I was just looking at the paper and you are talking about femininity and children. Just one little story I wanted to share. When I was in Denver once I heard a story about an incident that took place in Los Angeles. This was long before bottled water became a commodity in the store. In LA they've had machines for quite some time to dispense water for people that didn''t want to drink the city water. And devotees used to go to one particular machine--particularly the sankirtana devotees used to go to this machine. But also grihastas, and in one instance there was one mataji--she had a whole bunch of bottles she wanted to fill up because she had a big family. And there was another mataji she had only one bottle for herself and for her sankirtana program. And so she asked the first mataji who had a couple bottles, "Can I get ahead of you because I have to hurry out on sankirtana?" And the mataji who had the bottles, she turned to her and said--because she had children--she said, "You have your sankirtana, and I have my sankirtana. And my children are my sankirtana." And this was back in the days when that was a bold thing to say.

V: Prabhupada wrote this letter to Arundhati about how she should make her son her Deity--that was in 1970--no '72.

D: Going back to what we were saying about men being inferior sometimes--other men, or having men being made to feel inferior--it's a subtle thing--but I always thought it comes from like sometimes Sanyasis--or anybody--will come and say--you know, in their class--they......[indistinguishable].....they'll say something like if a woman marries a second time she's like a prostitute--we had somebody say that--a sanyasi--if man has sex after forty years old, their children will be too young when they renounce. Or they'll say--invariably, it seems like it's Krishna conscious philosophy coming down, about how we should be pure--I'm pure, you should be pure too--if you're not you're third class. So, it's like insulting--it comes across like--in ways, and after a while, you know, you are thinking, "What is going on here?" And then your original beauty of Krishna consciousness becomes like a smeared moon and you feel lost--kind of "What?" So, it's subtle. But, when you live a little bit like here, you're not under the social--you have some social and emotional needs to fulfill in a more natural way. You don't depend on so many people like that. It's like you think independently. Then you start to notice what they are doing. Why am I supposed to hear this one? This commentary isn't needed any more. I'm not in the temple. If you live in the temple, if you say something wrong, if you live in the temple, you're out--you may be--maybe, maybe not. It may be like that. So there's a lot of subtle things that you realize more when you're in a better environment. You start to become more receptive of what people do to you. So then, what I do now, because I'm not in such great risk anymore, I just slam them down, you know, if they come on too hard--if it goes too far--I just tell them, you know--just be normal, don't play a trip on me--just relax. And usually men who are very--you know like--really strong--he's not strong--he's like covering up his weaknesses--you know, like his security as a sanyasi or anybody. He's just covering for himself by using the philosophy very often in very subtle ways to promote himself. Like, you know, so I'm not saying that everybody's like that in ISKCON or all the leaders are just a bunch of--you know--I'm not saying that. All I'm saying is that if you give everybody their space everything will go on normal. And Prabhupada said that. .....[indistinguishable]....Not everybody can live in a tight temple situation. So the mood is like this helps do that. It's not deterred by these people at all. We've got our own issues. We've got a lot of issues. But we're handling it very well without them. And it's a fact. It's not like we need a GBC to tell us how to follow Prabhupada's instructions. We don't need that. We need people who can encourage us..... That's why it's important to realize that when--ISKCON doesn't mean you're under the GBC. It is in one sense like that, but in another sense it's more than that. It's a transcendental mood--people can understand Prabhupada's instruction on their own. That's good enough. And they can expand more and more. That's what I meant by subtle conditioning that we have sometimes.....

V: I think as a society we face a very difficult problem of translating this perfect Vedic culture into our modern context. And that requires one who is an expert judge of time, place, and circumstance, which Srila Prabhupada was. And if we study his letters and his teachings carefully, we'll even find that there was at least one occasion where he sanctioned a woman remarrying. So to make this statement that a woman who remarries is such and such--is not, because he had--and that's one of Krishna's 64 transcendental qualities--of a pure devotee--has that quality in fullness--the quality to be able to be the perfect judge of time and place and circumstance--and lacking that quality we become fanatical--when we make these statements that discourage people, even though we may just be trying to preach purely--it has the opposite effect, so it's again, maturity.

D: This--going into the issue of remarriage--what I'm going to say--it applies to all the other things. We want the end thing to be perfect, without all the middle groundwork we've got. Where's the support, where's the extended family, where's the--you know--all of this--that would allow you not to get divorced in the first place, to get married better in the first place--to, you know, look after you if you did get a divorce. Where is all of this? They just say--don't remarry--without any support. So you--first, you put in everything else--then you've got all the rest there. Then the natural conclusion would be against remarriage and support for the other. So, I think it's the same for this topic--you have to have all the support there if you want it to be successful. Just like Sakuntala was saying, you know we have to--the parents have a great responsibility to train their children like that. So I've found that this community, and in Vancouver--it's largely grihasta based. So there hasn't been a lot of room for brahmacaris and sanyasis to come in and lay it down--because numbers, you know--there's so many against a few. So we've had the problem less than in other places that were largely without such situations of devotees. And the other way around. And a side point, you know, I always thought New Vrindavana had all the problems because they didn't support the grihasta ashram. You know, they were always sending the people out--you demean the kid by calling him glub and halava and you know--like not even a devotional name. Women were never home--they were only used to collect money. And then you wonder why so much weirdness is going on. And then you end up with....[indistinguishable]... And I sometimes wonder if it wasn't just .......[indistinguishable]......

D: I have a question here. And actually, anyone can answer it. Because on this point that Mother Uttama just made with the situation in New Vrindavana--because I know one Mataji--I met one Mataji from New Vrindavana--and it wasn't until her child was actually two years old that she actually began to have a relationship with her child--because until then she was never with her child at all. She was always doing something--so called devotional service. So, there was a story that I heard--it's one of those Srila Prabhupada said things--I was just trying to find out if anyone's ever heard the same thing--if it's documented somewhere--where Srila Prabhupada said that the grandchildren would become pure devotees. And then one devotee asked Prabhupada why the grandchildren and not the children. And Prabhupada said because they will not have you for their parents. So is that documented in any way? That's my question. I mean I've heard it.

V: No one here seems to have heard it. That doesn't mean that....

D: My .....[indistinguishable]....is that our generation will be known as the Neanderthal bhaktas. [laughter]

D: I was just just going to make a comment about--we were talking a lot about how children had bad role models--obviously--but there were also devotee children who had good role models. Like I was--I know other friends--so.......[indistinguishable]....we had a balance of view between--not that women were bad--or that getting married was bad--but not that we should always go do whatever we wanted.....so I just wanted to mention that we had a balanced view.

D: And I also wanted to mention that in my encounters with different male devotees in Krishna consciousness both in American and in India that I've seen some really nice role models of men taking the position of their constitutional position of, you know, the feminine counterpart of Krishna's masculinity. And that has served as a very inspiring role model for me to understand how I should be. But they're very humble and they're very gentle and--you know, all these nice qualities. There are some very nice brahmacaryas both in the past and in the present that I believe manifest these qualities. So, I just wanted to--and maybe some of you have met people like that too.

D: I watched some videos from the women's conference. I didn't watch all of them, but I did see some of them of some of the older ladies like Malati and yourself and others speaking about their early experiences with Srila Prabhupada. And it really struck me--one of the things that really struck me--for example, Malati was describing how the ladies in the early years through the sixties and well into the seventies--ladies traveled with Prabhupada and they had opportunity to give Bhagavatam classes and lead kirtanas and lecture at large pandals and do aratik--you know, perform aratik to install Deities in India in public before thousands of Indian people. And it struck me that I joined the movement in 1970 in Vancouver and at that point there was no question--women were not giving class, women were not doing aratik, women were not doing any of these things--especially in North America--and it really struck me, how did this happen? That even though Prabhupada was directly engaging and encouraging women and doing all these things, in the temples, at least in America when I joined in 1970 it wasn't happening. And I came to understand that there must have been some kind of "knowledge filter" that came down through the role models at that time--the prominent leaders in our movement at that time--the sanyasis and GBC had somehow taken Prabhupada's teachings and interpreted them in such a way and filtered them down to us as devotees as early as 1970. In my experience as a devotee from the moment I joined in 1970 it was just an accepted fact--women were not doing those things.

D: It must have started in Vancouver. [laughter] My personal experience-- Because I joined a little bit later, you know, like in 1973 on the East Coast in Washington, Miami and places like that. In those places it was all still going on. Women giving classes, doing aratiks--the head pujari in Washington DC was a woman. She was doing practically all the worship--and these were Radha-Krishna Deities. But I--just from my personal recollection--like the changes happened a little bit later--you know, like at least on the East Coast of the United States--like I said, maybe it started earlier around here--but around 1975.

D: When I joined New York that was when one of the sanyasis in Manattan--they--women couldn't be on the altar.....

D: So it started in New York? [laughter]

D: [Indistinguishable]

V: ...[indistinguishable].....appointees to the GBC objected to their being on the GBC. And at that time Yamuna was the head pujari at Soho Street. She was caring then after the Deities. Except she was so absorbed that when the time came to record it at the studio--the famous Hare Krishna Happening album--whatever it was that became a hit--it was going to take three hours and she didn't want to go--she didn't want to leave Her Lordships alone--so the idea of becoming a GBC was entirely unattractive to her. And so when this male person objected she said fine, no problem. So that changed the history of ISKCON, certainly.

D: Also on that issue--but I see many many times in Vancouver how women are unable to stay because there is not a proper training system--they always have to be sent away. It becomes a little embarrassing to try to attract them to the temple and to tell them they can't stay here.

D: I wanted to comment that although a lot of things that were being done wrong in the past are not still happening.....[indistinguishable]....still, there are a lot of things wrong with the way that women are treated in the present day as far as policy. In Los Angeles, single women with children can't rent an apartment there and even single women can't rent an apartment there. I've actually been living in the Temple community for the past five years--like, renting an apartment from somebody and subletting from somebody else--but I asked even recently--up to--I mean, I do a lot of service for the Deities--appreciate everything like that--and I had been living there already for the last five years--but not--but the Temple--I asked them recently if I could just rent my own apartment and my own room and everything like that and they said no we don't rent to single women. You know, I already lived there and they won't let me get an apartment. So, that's the type of policy that should be addressed. I was born and raised in Los Angeles, and for them to turn me away really hurts. And there's other things, like recently I was told that there were paintings put up on the walls in Mayapura--historical photographs and things like that--and women were painted out of those images and then other people were painted in. But it's just another--there's a couple of other things like that--where people aren't acknowledging the women like they should, which is a current day type of thing that should be looked at.......

V: That's definitely something that should be looked at. In Prabhupada's Samadhi in Mayapura they've put up huge murals taken from photographs of different events in Prabhupada's preaching. They've actually edited the women out of those events.

D: That's changing history.

D ; That's outrageous.

V: Their reasoning was that a sanyasi isn't supposed to be close to women--that......[indistinguishable]....that was their reasoning, but the idea is that that was part of Prabhupada's legacy and they shouldn't try to protect Prabhupada from himself. So that's definitely something that should be addressed.

D: That's interesting, because I believe there's a Vishnu temple in India where they have going around the top floor of the temple the various tantric positions--you're supposed to circumambulate the temple before entering--and just absorb these things and get them out of your consciousness. So that you can greet the Deities without having these type of lust desires--in India....[indistinguishable]

V: Radha dasi--was that her name? She gave a wonderful presentation at the Los Angeles conference--did you hear that one?

D: Which one?

V: Her name is Radha dasi. She was a lawyer. Well she brought up that

point--she spoke in a way that really related to everyone. When she finally came to that point about women being extracted from the murals of the samadhi she said it's as if the male members don't even want us to exist......

Anything else? Thank you very much for your attention. Hare Krishna.

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