Prabhupada Can Explain fall soul

BY URDHVAGA DAS

EDITORIAL, Apr 12 (VNN) — A reply to Mahananda's article on VNN5795 and the VNN Forum-member there who expressed his confusion over the conflicting ideas about the "Soul's Fall". He sincerely asks if there is actually anyone who CAN "clear this out" for him?

YES, Srila Prabhupada can explain.

Srila Prabhupada in his lectures always says that originally we were all Krsna-conscious living entities and on the Hare Krishna album He addresses a large audience with the words: "We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ." For us, there was never any question that the presentation given by Srila Prabhupada supported nothing but this conclusion. But it seems that simply by englarging some apparent contradictions in Prabhupada's statements, some devotees are using these apparent contradictions as a foundation for introducing various foreign concepts and interpretations and perhaps using such supposed contradictions to mean that perhaps Srila Prabhupada was even deceptive, or even deviant in his presentation of Vedic concepts.

Srila Prabhupada says that the spirit soul's falling into maya's influence is due to:

eternal independence

imitation of the Lord

misuse of free will

forgetfulness of relationship

turning away from service

marginal aptitude to chose

ETERNAL INDEPENDENCE

"Regarding your questions concerning the spirit soul's falling into maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krishna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually, anyone who has developed his relationship with Krishna does not fall down in any circumstances, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krishna is never lost. Simply it is forgotten by the influence of maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70 "A living entity misuses his little independence when he wants to lord it over material nature. This misuse of independence, which is called maya, is always available. Otherwise, there would not be independence. Independence implies that one can use it properly or improperly." Srimad Bhagavatam 3.31.15

BHAKTIJANA: "When the souls that were never conditioned at all . . . do they have in independence?"

PRABHUPADA: "Yes, but they have not misused . . ." "They are all self-realized souls who are nitya-mukta, everlastingly liberated. Although they could conceivably declare themselves Narayan or Vishnu, they do not do so. They always remain Krishna conscious and serve the Lord faithfully." Srimad Bhagavatam 6.1.34 The living entity has eternal independence in the matter of properly or improperly using his free will. If his primeval origin was the brahmajyoti, where does the misuse of independence come in?

If a teacher gives a student full knowledge, and the student still chooses wrongly, then the student is at fault, not the teacher. If God originally made the jiva nothing more than an impersonal spark in the brahmajyoti, how is it that that spark's "equilibrium somehow became disturbed"? How could such a falldown be the jiva's responsibility? It would be God's responsibility if that were the case, and the so-called free will of the jiva would be a hoax.

IMITATION OF THE LORD

"As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly, we were with Krishna in His lila or sport, but this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration. Therefore, many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time, it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned . . . Unless one develops full devotional service to Krishna, he goes up only to brahma-sayujya but falls down. After millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krishna consciousness, this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming. Because he falls down from brahma sayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that, before that even, he was with Krishna." THE ORIGIN OF THE JIVA: BRAHMAJYOTI OR KRISHNA LILA? Australian conversation with Srila Prabhupada Transcribed as Nectar of the Month, BBT Report, January, 1982 One may contend that the ability of the jiva to initially become envious of God is a constitutional fault. Actually, it is a symptom of the jiva's free will, which is one of his constitutional glories. Subconsciously (or even consciously), those who cling to the belief that the living entity originally came from the brahmajyoti must feel that evil is supreme, and that is one of the reasons why that apa-siddhanta is covert mayavada. The inconceivability side of this point comes into play when the query of just how and why a specific jiva individually fell is enunciated. While still in the conditioned state, we cannot know the specifics of this, and, as such, it remains achintya or inconceivable. "Yes. The conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus were with Krishna before being conditioned . . . similarly, each soul has seen Krishna . . ." Letter to Jagadish, 2.25.70

"The living entities are not without spiritual senses. Every living being in his original, spiritual form has all the senses, which are now material, being covered by the body and mind. Activities of the material senses are perverted reflections of spiritual pastimes." Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 11 MISUSE OF FREE WILL

"The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature. And this minute independence may be utilised rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence." Letter to Jagadish, 4.25.70 "Originally pure Krishna consciousness exists, but because of misuse of marginal independence there is a chance of forgetting Krishna. From the state of pure consciousness, the false ego is born because of misuse of independence. We cannot argue about why false ego arises from pure consciousness. Factually, there is always the chance that this will happen, and therefore one has to be very careful." SB 3.26.23-24 pp. The above verse not only says that fall-down is due to misuse of independence but also clearly says WHERE that misusing is done, namely on the spiritual platform and not on a concocted marginal plane, i.e. "by misuse of the individual independence of the spiritual platform". In other words, when the living entity on the spiritual platform misuses his individual independence, it falls down to the material platform. The above verse does not mention a third plane from where the choosing is done. It is amazing how many devotees argue against Srila Prabhupada although he says we can not argue about it.

FORGETFULNESS OF RELATIOSHIP

"The marginal energy is ORIGINALLY under the control of the SPIRITUAL energy, but, under the control of the material energy, the living entities have been wandering in forgetfulness within the material world since time immemorial. The conditioned state is caused BY MISUSE OF THE INDIVIDUAL INDEPENDENCE OF THE SPIRITUAL PLATFORM, for this separates the living entity from the association of the spiritual energy. In the conditioned state, the living entities of the marginal energy are a mixture of spiritual and material energies. The marginal jiva, or living entity, misuses his independence and becomes averse to the eternal service attitude when he independently thinks he is not energy but the energetic. This misconception of his own existence leads him to the attitude of lording it over material nature. But when the living entity is enlightened by the grace of the Supreme or His pure devotee and becomes inclined to revive his original state of loving service, he is on the most auspicious platform of eternal bliss and knowledge." CC Adi 5.66 pp. One can revive something only if one has had it before, and one can go back to godhead only if one has been there already!

"We have come from the spiritual world into this material world. We have forgotten our Father. So we have to revive this relationship with our Father, or God--or Krishna." Lecture, 10.07.75

" . . . but, in the material world, by the spell of maya or illusion, this eternal relation with the Supreme Personality of Godhead is forgotten . . . " Srimad Bhagavatam 1.15.25-26

"The living entity cannot be forgetful of his real identity unless influenced by the avidya potency." Srimad Bhagavatam 3.7.5

Our original relationship with Krishna is never lost, although temporarily forgotten. It was ripped away from us by the prakshepatmika-shakti of Maya, and we were then covered over by her avaranatmika-shakti of forgetfulness. As such, our original relationship with the Lord is forgotten, and this has tragic consequences for the jiva. We futilely try to re-establish that personal relationship with material liaisons, and this is ultimately only productive of misery. This tragedy is only very rarely transcended by artificially adopting mayavada and self-imposing the belief that we have never had any personal relationship with Krishna. Impersonalist's counter with this quotation from Sri Ishopanishad:

"The all-pervading feature of the Lord, which exists in all circumstances of waking and sleeping as well as in potential states, and from which the jiva-shakti (living force) is generated as both conditioned and liberated souls, is known as brahman." Sri Ishopanishad, Verse 16 Please note that the adverb "originally" is nowhere to be found in this quotation. Jivas may descend or generate many times in this way from brahma-sayujya, (that is alright) but that does not make the brahmajyoti their original home.

"We are all originally Krishna conscious entities . . ." Address to large audience--Prabhupada on the Hare Krishna album TURNING AWAY FROM SERVICE "The marginal jiva, or living entity, misuses his independence and becomes averse to the eternal service attitude when he independently thinks he is not energy but the energetic. This misconception of his own existence leads him to the attitude of lording it over material nature." CC Adi 5.66 pp. "When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord." Srimad Bhagavatam 4.28.53 "When the living entity thus turns away from the Supreme Lord, he also forgets his own constitutional position as a servant of the Lord." Srimad Bhagavatam 11.2.37 How can you hate (dveshya) the service of the Lord (seva) and turn your face away from that service (bahirmukha) when you are not engaged in any service whatsoever while floating around in the brahmajyoti? Even in shanta rasa in Vaikuntha, there is at least some kind of service. There is no service at all, however, in the brahmajyoti.

For the soul to become disturbed in the first place, he has to have an innate nature of something more than the non-differentiated state of existence. Otherwise, what is there for him to become disturbed about? That innate something else is his service attitude in combination with his original, personal relationship with the Supreme Lord. If the jiva has infinitesimal free will, how can he develop an aversion to service if he has never previously been engaged in it? The proof of our eternal service is that we are still serving here, although we are now serving the maya. Only in the brahmajyoti can a jiva's perverted desire to cease serving altogether be facilitated by the Lord. ". . . so the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there." Letter to Rayarama, 12.2.68

"So, there is chance of falling down even from the personal association of God . . ." Room conversation, 9.19.73

EXPLANATION OF TATASTHA SHAKTI - THE MARGINAL ENERGY

"The Supreme Lord has TWO energies, material and spiritual. The living entities are marginal energy. As marginal energy, a person may be under the control of the material energy (Maha-maya) or the spiritual energy (Yoga- maya). SB 3.23.10 pp.

"Because the living being can appear either in matter or in spirit, the jiva is called the marginal potency" CC Adi 5.41 pp.

"The living entity (jiva-atma) takes different positions - sometimes he merges into the dark material nature and identifies himself with matter, and sometimes he identifies himself with the superior spiritual nature.

THEREFORE, he is called the Lords marginal energy. " BG 8.3 pp. "The fact is that individual living entities are eternally part and parcel of the Supreme Lord, and both of them are very intimately related as friends. But the living entity has the tendency to reject the sanctions of the Supreme Lord and act independently in an attempt to dominate the supreme nature, and BECAUSE HE HAS THIS TENDENCY, he is called the marginal energy of the Supreme Lord. " BG 13.23 pp.

In the above verses, Srila Prabhupada explains that marginal energy means the TENDENCY of the living entity to reject the sanction of the Lord and act independently.

So, marginal energy, or tatastha-shakti, is NOT a particular place or area in outer space where souls drop from, but it denotes the NATURE of the jiva-soul. It refers to a living entity with the nature of independently choosing between the Lord's two energies. Therefore, the living entities DO NOT expand from the marginal energy, but their natures are called marginal. This marginal energy (jiva-soul) is an expansion of Lord Krishna, who is the origin of the living entities. If marginal energy (the living entity with its independent nature) chooses to be in contact with the external energy of the Lord, it still remains marginal. (See CC Adi 2.96) If the marginal living entity chooses to go back to the internal energy (the spiritual world), it still keeps his marginal independence. It does not change his nature into internal energy and becomes Vishnu-tattva. Although the living entities are equal in quality to the internal potency of Krishna (which is spiritual), they nevertheless keep their marginal independence. Jiva-tattva (the marginal energy) does not turn into Vishnu-tattva (the internal energy), otherwise the living entity would turn into God Himself as in Mayavadi philosophy.

Marginal energy can be situated either in the external or internal energy of the Lord and according to the living beings free will and contact with either the material or spiritual energies, the living being is situated in proportionally higher or lower levels of existence. If marginal energy can freely choose to be situated in either external or internal energy, then marginal energy (because of his free will) can also choose to leave either external or internal energy.

It is also absurd to write papers on "The Origin Of The Soul" when the soul as such is eternal - that means without a beginning - It is foolish to attribute ANOTHER ORIGIN than Krishna to the souls manifestation when Krishna says, that everything emanates from Him, that He is the cause of all causes and the origin of all.

In Bhagavad-Gita it is stated: "Never was there a time when I, Krsna, nor you Arjuna did not exist, nor all these kings and warriors assembled here. Nor will there ever come a time when we cease to be."

Vaisnava dasa: We living beings never had an "origin" in the sense that we were created at such a time, as if created in the manner in which we concieve that a child is manifested from the womb at a certain point in time. Just as the Lord of all living beings never had an origin -- He being the cause of all causes, the primeval, original living being -- we, as His parts and parcels, the minute living beings also do not have a beginning, although it is said in sastra that we are like the sunshine particles emanating from the sun. There is no difference between the sun and the sunshine, but the sunshine is the energy of the sun. Similarly, we are energy of the supreme energetic living being, and of the same spiritual nature as Him. We understand that this means that in the ultimate issue the nature of the Absoute Truth is not impersonal, but that nature is cognizant, and is personal. Our origin has nothing to do with being manifested in the darkness of the impersonal aspect of the Absolute Truth.

I see often enough critics of this straightforward presentation attempt to contradict this by claiming that it is stated that no one falls from the association of the Lord, and to suggest so is wrong on many levels. Why should one desire to leave the association of the Lord? they deny. Yet Srila Prabhupada often used the analogy of the prison house, and compared the material world to a place where one goes when he wrongly desires against the will of the Lord. We living entities are described as marginal energy of the Lord, and as such, we have this free will to choose to stay with the Lord, or live in the illusion of material life. If we entertain to accept the idea that we never fall from the Lord's association, how can we reconcile that we may not or cannot fall from His association even if we desire to? Where then is the question of love of God, and existence of free will if we may not break the association with God under any circumstance?

The critics of Srila Prabhupada's presentation gravitate towards terms like nitya-sidda and nitya-baddha. Literally we know nitya-baddha means eternally conditioned, and we know through the via media of the guru, Srila Prabhupada, that nitya-baddha is not to be taken literally, but to be taken to mean that this material conditioning is so long that we cannot conceive of when or wherefrom we have become conditioned in this state of material forgetfulness of our association of the Lord. It should not be necessary whatsoever to state that the whole program of work for the Lord and His associates in the material manifestation is to enlighten them towards their primeval condition of life. Had the nitya-baddhas have been literally understood to mean that they are forever illusioned, ever-conditioned, then we may not attempt to try and rescue them from their eternally-conditioned nature(?) So, our business is to rescue the nitya-baddhas and make them nitya-siddhas.

SRILA PRABHUPADA ON OUR ORIGINAL POSITION

Here are excerpts from two letters the Srila Prabhupada sent to Upendra prabhu regarding our 'original position'. One letter is from 1968 and one from 1969. "Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down.

Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease. Please offer my blessings to the others. I hope this will meet you in good health." A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada