"Formerly We Were with Krsna in His Lila, or Sport"

A Concise Treatment of the Jiva Question

by Dravida dasa

[The following is a response I wrote in March of 1998 to Agrahya Prabhu on VNN, whose position is that we never fell from the spiritual world but who argues, as does Srila Prabhupada, that ultimately the fall-nofall debate is a useless quibble. The Crow and Tal paper is titled as such because at its end Srila Prabhupada says this: “On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down. Some panditas, big big learned scholars, saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.”]

I agree with Agrahya Prabhu that we should follow Srila Prabhupada's advice at the end of the Crow-and-Tal paper and not waste time arguing about how or when we became conditioned souls. Rather, we should simply accept Prabhupada's conclusion that "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport" and then strive to go back home, back to Godhead.

However, the jiva question has taken on importance beyond its intrinsic value for the following reasons:

1. Because ISKCON has officially adopted the position that Srila Prabhupada believed and taught that the conditioned souls were once serving Krsna in His lila in the spiritual world, some parties have accused the Society's leaders of offending Prabhupada by attributing to him apasiddhantic views and thus endangering the entire future of his Society. Some parties also accuse ISKCON of offending all the jiva residents of Krsna-loka by believing and teaching that some of them could leave Krsna's service.

2. The following dangerous argument has been adopted by some parties: The works of the previous acaryas such as Jiva Gosvami make it obvious that no living entity ever falls from Krsna-lila and that those who are now conditioned souls have always been such (anadi-karma). Since Srila Prabhupada's presentation of Gaudiya-Vaisnava philosophy was of course in line with the teachings of the previous acaryas, whenever he made statements to the effect that the conditioned souls were once with Krsna in His lila, in an active, developed relationship of loving devotional service, he must have been executing some kind of preaching strategy. In other words, like Sankaracarya, he was preaching something he knew to be false because of the time and circumstances. However, those fools who accept Srila Prabhupada's statements as true and thus disregard the works of the previous acaryas are misled like the Mayavadis.

Since these weighty accusations all stem from the debate over whether or not Srila Prabhupada truly believed and taught that the conditioned souls were once with Krsna in His lila, I would say that the issue merits some time and attention.

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First, we regard as absurd and offensive the idea that though Srila Prabhupada repeatedly taught that the conditioned souls were once with Krsna or Visnu in the spiritual world, serving Him in His lila, Prabhupada knew that this teaching was false. Such a "preaching strategy" is completely out of character for Srila Prabhupada, he never gave any hint of it (unlike Sankaracarya with his famous bhaja govindam and other utterances), and the flimsy possible rationale for it--that his Western disciples couldn't take the shock of learning that they'd never been with Krsna--is belied by Srila Prabhupada's identical preaching in his old BTGs and other writings, many years before he set foot in the West.

Here is Srila Prabhupada's translation of a statement by Srila Bhaktivinoda Thakura in Prabhupada's very first Back to Godhead Magazine, published in 1944: "This material world is a construction of the material energy, and the material existence of the living entity is a sort of punishment just like a prisoner. The punishment is due to FORGETFULNESS OF GODHEAD BY THE LIVING ENTITY. And therefore there is no deliverance of the living entities from the clutches of Nescience save and except by the REVIVAL OF HIS SENSE OF GODHEAD. Those who have forgotten the relation of Godhead are only the prisoners of this Material world and those who have not forgotten Him are the liberated souls." How can you forget what you never knew, or revive what you never experienced?

And Srila Prabhupada himself writes in the same Back to Godhead, "The creation of the 'Chit' potency is three-fourth of the whole creation and is the Kingdom of God or technically called 'Baikuntha.'. . . FORGETFULNESS OF THE TRANSCENDENTAL LOVING SERVICE OF THE 'CHIT POTENCY' OF THE PERSONALITY OF GODHEAD, SREE KRISHNA, IS THE CAUSE OF FALL-DOWN OF THE LIVING ENTITIES. Reinstallation of the relation of the 'Chit' Potency shall therefore be the ultimate goal of human life. If the living entity therefore somehow or other comes in touch with a bonafide saint and scriptures and thus becomes eager for REVIVAL OF HIS LOST RELATION OF THE 'CHIT' POTENCY, he can then only be liberated from the clutches of the 'Maya' potency and then only all creation of the material nature appears to him as insignificant, temporary and illusion." Here "forgetfulness" and "revival" of the living entity's relationship of loving service of Krsna's cit potency clearly means forgetfulness of one's loving service to Krsna in the spiritual world ("Baikuntha") and revival of the same.

So from day one of Srila Prabhupada's preaching mission, he believed and taught "Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila, or sport." His only preaching strategy was to impart the truth.

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Second, Agrahya Prabhu completely misrepresents my viewpoint when he says, "It appears that Dravida Prabhu suggests that we can brush aside [passages in Srila Prabhupada's books where Prabhupada says that the soul does not fall from Vaikuntha.]" I suggested no such thing. My point is that given such passages in Prabhupada's books and the many passages stating just the opposite, we need a way to reconcile them, and that Srila Prabhupada wrote the Crow-and-Tal statement to provide us with it. Therefore Crow-and-Tal is of paramount importance in our efforts to resolve the jiva question.

The reconciliation is this:

"No-fall" is true because "We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna." The so-called fall from Vaikuntha or Goloka is simply a dream state Maya imposes on a living entity who wants to enjoy separate from Krsna. Like a man lying on his bed dreaming he's in a forest being attacked by a tiger, the conditioned living entity remains in his spiritual position but dreams he's in the material world, separate from Krsna. Forgetful of Krsna, Goloka, and his loving relationship with Krsna, the conditioned soul suffers for millions of births in this dream.

"Fall" is true because the word patita, "fallen," is commonly used to describe the state in which the living entity forgets his eternal loving relationship with Krsna and suffers (ayi nanda-tanuja kinkaram patitam mam visame bhavambudhau). So when he forgets Krsna, Goloka, and his loving relationship with Krsna, the living entity "falls" into the material world and suffers for millions of births.

Ergo both "no-fall" and "fall" are true.

As Srila Prabhupada put it in a letter to Upendra dasa in July 1970:

"Regarding your question--What does it mean: 'We are all originally Krsna conscious entities.'--We are always with Krsna. Where is not Krsna present? So how you can say that we were [never with Krsna] before? You are always with Krsna and when we forget this fact we are far, far away from Him. In the Isopanisad it is clearly stated that tad dure tad vantike 'He is very [far] away, but He is very near as well.' (Iso. mantra 5). SO THIS FORGETFULNESS IS OUR FALLDOWN. It can take place at any moment, and we can counteract this forgetfulness immediately [by] rising to the platform of Krsna consciousness."

Srila Prabhupada gives this definitive answer to the jiva question in a letter to Sriman Stan in November 1970:

"WE ARE ALL ORIGINALLY SITUATED ON THE PLATFORM OF KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS IN OUR ETERNAL PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP OF LOVE OF KRSNA. But due to forgetfulness we become familiar with the material world or Maya. As soon as one chants the Hare Krsna Mantra with sincerity and without offense . . . his original Krsna consciousness is immediately revived. [By chanting Hare Krsna and performing other devotional activities] we are always remembering Krsna and that is our natural conscious state. So naturally EVERYTHING ABOUT KRSNA IS ORIGINALLY KNOWN TO US ALL and as soon as we begin to associate with the devotees of the Lord and chant His Holy Name, this memory gradually becomes stronger as we remember our constitutional position of always serving Krsna in different ways."

Some say these letters and others like them are less authoritative than Srila Prabhupada's books. But Prabhupada wrote the quoted portions to clear up questions that puzzled his followers after they'd read seemingly contradictory statements in his books. For me, at least, Prabhupada's letters have equal weight with his books when he is dealing with philosophical issues such as the jiva question.

I don't accept Agrahya's condition that a statement for "fall" in Prabhupada's books must say "living entities sometimes come under the influence of maya and fall from Krishna's pastimes." This implies I am arguing that Maha-maya can enter into the spiritual world. Of course, she cannot. Rather, the correct sequence is this: a living entity desires to enjoy separate from Krsna and then, by Krsna's will, is covered by Maya, who causes him to forget Krsna. Srila Prabhupada explains in his purport to SB 2.9.2:

"Therefore the first sinful will of the living entity is to become the Lord, and the consequent will of the Lord is that the living entity forgets his factual life and thus dreams of the land of utopia where he may become one like the Lord."

Now, unless I know Krsna's form, qualities, and pastimes in the spiritual world, how can I develop the "sinful will" to become the Lord and dream of "the land of utopia"--the spiritual world--where I can become like Him? Isn't it obvious that when Prabhupada says "the living entity forgets his factual life" he refers to his life of service to Krsna?

[In my original post on this topic, I said that one can easily find at least ten times as many passages in Srila Prabhupada's books supporting the fall position than negating it. Agrahya Prabhu disputed this point, saying my arithmetic was way off.]

For me, every time I read the phrase "back home, back to Godhead" in Prabhupada's books, this is an affirmation of "fall." "Home" means "original residence," not some place we've never been before. There are 778 "back home, back to Godhead"s in Srila Prabhupada's books. You can add to that the numerous references to reviving our original Krsna consciousness or our original loving relationship with Krsna and the like, and we're well over 800, which makes the ratio 100 to 1, not 10 to 1, as I said in my previous post. So Agrahya is right: my arithmetic was off. Anyone with the Folio program can do his or her own research.

Here is a nice quote from the Sixth Canto (1.55) summarizing Prabhupada's consistent view of the matter:

"In summary, the living entity is an eternal servant of God, but he comes to the material world and is bound by material conditions because of his desire to lord it over matter. Liberation means giving up this false consciousness and REVIVING ONE'S ORIGINAL SERVICE TO THE LORD. This return to one's original life is called mukti, as confirmed in Srimad-Bhagavatam (muktir hitvanyatha rupam svarupena vyavasthitih)."

In point 2 of his letter, Agrahya Prabhu writes, "There are many, many statements on the marginality of the living entity, who is by nature of the tatastha or marginal potency, but where is the connection that says, 'therefore these marginal entities WILL fall EVEN FROM the spiritual world'?"

Srila Prabhupada answers in this letter to Rayarama in 1968:

"The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. THERE ARE INSTANCES WHERE MARGINAL ENERGY JIVA SOULS HAVE FALLEN FROM THE SPIRITUAL WORLD, JUST LIKE JAYA AND VIJAYA. SO THE POTENCY TO FALL UNDER THE INFLUENCE OF THE LOWER ENERGY IS ALWAYS THERE. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as Krishna's marginal energy."

And again in this letter to Upendra dasa in October 1969:

"CONSTITUTIONALLY EVERY LIVING ENTITY, EVEN IF HE IS IN THE VAIKUNTHA LOKA, HAS CHANCE OF FALLING DOWN. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for argument's sake, a living entity, being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned."

So the conditioned souls are all constitutionally nitya-muktas, but they've been dreaming they're baddhas for such a long, long time that they seem to be nitya-baddhas. This is confirmed in SB 2.5.19, both verse and purport:

karya-karana-kartrtve

dravya-jnana-kriyasrayah

badhnanti NITYADA MUKTAM

mayinam purusam gunah

These three modes of material nature, being further manifested as matter, knowledge and activities, put THE ETERNALLY TRANSCENDENTAL LIVING ENTITY under conditions of cause and effect and make him responsible for such activities.

Purport

"Because they are between the internal and external potencies, the eternally transcendental living entities are called the marginal potency of the Lord. Factually, the living entities are not meant to be so conditioned by material energy, but due to their being affected by the false sense of lording it over the material energy, they come under the influence of such potency and thus become conditioned by the three modes of material nature. This external energy of the Lord covers up the pure knowledge of the LIVING ENTITIES ETERNALLY EXISTING WITH HIM, but the covering is so constant that it appears that the conditioned soul is eternally ignorant."

In this startling verse and purport Lord Brahma himself says that "eternally liberated" (nityada muktam) living entities can become bound up by the modes of nature. In the purport Prabhupada's phrase for the nitya-muktas is "the living entities eternally existing with Him."

It's clear that here Prabhupada is taking Brahma's statement to mean that jiva souls living with Krsna in the spiritual world and serving Him can lose their nitya-mukta status and become conditioned if they adopt "a false sense of lording it over the material energy."

There are literally hundreds of quotes from Prabhupada's lectures and conversations that support this view, such as this one from a lecture in July 1976:

"Mukti means, as it is defined in the Srimad-Bhagavatam, muktir hitvanyatha rupam sva-rupena vyavasthitih. That is mukti. Sva-rupena, legally, constitutionally, I am servant of God, or Krsna. Now I have become servant of dog and maya. So if I give up this service and AGAIN BECOME SERVANT OF GOD, that is mukti."

How to reconcile these statements of Srila Prabhupada's with such statements as "no one ever falls from Vaikuntha" (SB 7.1.5), "a nitya-mukta never forgets his position as the eternal servant of the Supreme Personality of Godhead"(SB 4.16.19), "the eternally liberated living beings are in the Vaikuntha jagat, the spiritual world, and they never fall into the material world"(SB 5.11.12), and others that Agrahya Prabhu has quoted?

Well, we have seen that Crow-and-Tal will help, and so will the following letter to Jagadisa dasa, written in February 1970:

"Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. USUALLY ANYONE WHO HAS DEVELOPED HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH KRSNA DOES NOT FALL DOWN IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, BUT BECAUSE THE INDEPENDENCE IS ALWAYS THERE, THE SOUL MAY FALL DOWN FROM ANY POSITION OR ANY RELATIONSHIP BY MISUSING HIS INDEPENDENCE. But his relationship with Krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new."

So, as we have learned from Crow-and-Tal and other places in Prabhupada's writings that the "nitya" in nitya-baddha is really not "eternal" but "of very, very, very, very long duration," so from the above letter and Prabhupada's comments on SB 2.5.19 we have to accept that the "no one ever"s, the "never"s, and the like in such statements as "no one ever falls from Vaikuntha" and "a nitya-mukta never forgets his position as the eternal servant of [God]" really mean "almost no one ever" and "almost never." And those few who do fall and forget have, over the eons, populated this material world with the countless conditioned souls.

To sum up, from Srila Prabhupada's teachings as a whole we can conclude that Prabhupada believed and taught the following:

1. Since Krsna's energies are all-pervading, we can never truly be separated from Krsna, and therefore no one falls from the spiritual world in the literal sense.

2. Occasionally one of Krsna's jiva-soul servitors in the spiritual world, who are by nature in the marginal position, somehow or other develops the desire to enjoy separate from Krsna. This desire causes the soul to be covered by illusion and thus forget Krsna, His abode, and service to Him. This forgetfulness, likened to a dreaming state, is sometimes known as "falling from the spiritual world."

3. By practicing bhakti-yoga we can revive our original Krsna consciousness, regain our original spiritual form (svarupena vyavasthitih), and return to our original position of loving devotional service to Krsna in the spiritual world.

4. Genuine followers of Srila Prabhupada must accept the above principles concerning the jiva soul as the Gaudiya-Vaisnava siddhanta and teach the same.