Drutakarma soul file

Drutakarma soul file

[compl.]

Reference from Srila Prabhupad

Lectures General 2 March 1975 Atlanta

Devotee (III) (?): If one is fortunate enough to revive his natural position in the spiritual sky, how can he keep from falling down again? Like, if an entity is fortunate enough to revive his natural constitutional position in the spiritual sky, how can he keep from falling...

Prabhupada:

How your Nixon is dragged down? How your president Nixon is dragged down? He was in the exalted post, and why he was dragged down?

Devotee (IV): They dragged him down.

Prabhupada: Yes. He was forced to come down. Why?

Tamal

Krsna: He broke the rules.

Prabhupada: Anyone, even in this world or spiritual world, he has got the potency of coming down by misusing his little independence. It is nothing like that, that if you become president, you are secure. If you are not perfect, then you will be dragged down. Or if you think imperfectly... The formula is that in the spiritual world everyone is engaged in the service of the Lord. There is no other conception as in this material world everyone is engaged to serve his senses. He likes something, and he is engaged for that purpose. That service is there, but it is service to himself, his senses. But in the spiritual world there is no such thing as giving service to the senses. Simply giving service to the Lord. That is spiritual world. So as soon as you think that "Why shall I give service to Krsna? Why not become independent?" you fall down immediately. So there is potency of thinking like that. Krsna bhuliya jiva bhoga vancha kare, pasate maya tare japatiya dhare. As soon as one forgets the service of the Lord and he wants to become himself Lord, immediately maya will capture. This maya means this material world.

Prabhupada's Lectures

Bhagavad-gita 1966 660415BG.NY

These senses are our... Actually they are not mine. The senses are given by the Lord. Last day I explained. But we are very proud of our senses. But these senses are given just like a boy is given some plaything by the father, similarly, we wanted to enjoy this material world. Therefore our material senses are awarded: "All right, you enjoy. You just have experience of this material world, and when you get experience that 'I am not happy,' then you shall come back again to Me." So senses are actually meant for rendering service to the Lord.

Prabhupada's Lectures Bhagavad-gita 1973

730806BG.LON

Because we have also come down from Vaikuntha some millions and millions of years ago. Anadi karama phale. Anadi means before the creation. We living entities, we are eternal. Even the creation is annihilated after millions and trillions of years, the living entities, they are not annihilated.

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Twenty, Text 37 :PURPORT

Because the Supreme Personality of Godhead is all-spiritual, He can descend from the spiritual sky without changing His body, and thus He is known as acyuta, or infallible. When a living entity falls down to the material world, however, he has to accept a material body, and therefore, in his material embodiment, he cannot be called acyuta. Because he falls down from his real engagement in the service of the Lord, the living entity gets a material body to suffer or try to enjoy in the miserable material conditions of life. Therefore the fallen living entity is cyuta, whereas the Lord is called acyuta.

Srimad-Bhagavatam

Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-eight, Text 53 :TRANSLATION

The brahmana continued: My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world.

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 3:

Chapter Sixteen, Text 27

That is very explicitly explained here. The conclusion is that no one falls from the spiritual world, or Vaikuntha planet, for it is the eternal abode. But sometimes, as the Lord desires, devotees come into this material world as preachers or as atheists.

EXT

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Twenty, Text 37 :PURPORT

senses, which include the mind." Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4:

Chapter Twenty-four, Text 28 :PURPORT By endeavoring to dominate material nature, the living entity simply struggles hard for existence. Indeed, he struggles so hard to enjoy himself that he cannot even enjoy the material resources. Thus he is sometimes called prakrti, or jiva, for he is situated in the marginal potency. When the living entity is covered with the three modes of material nature, he is called jiva-samjnita. There are two kinds of living entities: one is called ksara, and the other is aksara. Ksara refers to those who have fallen down and become conditioned, and aksara refers to those who are not conditioned.

Srimad-Bhagavatam

Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-eight, Text 53 :TRANSLATION

PURPORT

As stated in Bhagavad-gita (7.27): Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto

4: Chapter Twenty-eight, Text 53 :PURPORT

iccha-dvesa-samutthena dvandva-mohena bharata sarva-bhutani

sammoham sarge yanti parantapa

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-eight, Text 53 :PURPORT "O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate." This is an explanation of how the living entity falls down into this material world. In the spiritual world there is no duality, nor is there hate. The Supreme Personality of Godhead expands Himself into many. In order to enjoy bliss more and more, the Supreme Lord expands Himself in different categories. As mentioned in the Varaha purana, He expands Himself in visnu-tattva (the svamsa expansion) and in His marginal potency (the vibhinnamsa, or the living entity). These expanded living entities are innumerable, just as the minute molecules of sunshine are innumerable expansions of the sun. The vibhinnamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world. In the prema-vivarta it is said:

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-eight, Text 53

:PURPORT

krsna-bahirmukha hana bhoga-vancha kare nikata-stha maya

tare japatiya dhare

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-eight, Text 53 :PURPORT The natural position of the living entity is to serve the Lord in a transcendental loving attitude. When the living entity wants to become Krsna Himself or imitate Krsna, he falls down into the material world. Since Krsna is the supreme father, His affection for the living entity is eternal. When the living entity falls down into the material world, the Supreme Lord, through His svamsa expansion (Paramatma), keeps company with the living entity. In this way the living entity may some day return home, back to Godhead.

Text 54

TANSLATION

My dear gentle friend, both you and I are exactly like two swans. We live together in the same heart, which is just like the Manasa Lake. Although we have been living together for many thousands of years, we are still far away from our original home.

PURPORT

The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world.

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 4: Chapter Twenty-nine, Text 4

:PURPORT

Originally the living entity is a spiritual being, but when he actually desires to enjoy this material world, he comes down. From this verse we can understand that the living entity first accepts a body that is human in form, but gradually, due to his degraded activities, he falls into lower forms of life--into the animal, plant and aquatic forms. By the gradual process of evolution, the living entity again attains the body of a human being and is given another chance to get out of the process of transmigration. If he again misses his chance in the human form to understand his position, he is again placed in the cycle of birth and death in various types of bodies.

Path of Perfection: Chapter Eight

:Failure and Success in Yoga

Srimad-Bhagavatam confirms that we are all parts and parcels of the Supreme. If a part of the body cannot regularly render service, it gives pain to the body, and if a person does not render service to the Supreme Lord, he is simply giving pain and trouble to the Supreme Lord. Therefore such a person has to suffer, just as a criminal has to suffer when he does not abide by the laws of the state. Such a criminal may think, "I'm a very good man," but because he is violating the laws of the state, he is giving the government trouble, and consequently the government puts him in prison. When living entities give the Supreme Lord trouble, the Lord comes, collects them together, and puts them in this material world. In essence, He says, "You live here. You are all disturbing the creation; therefore you are criminals and have to live in this material world." Sthanad bhrastah patanty adhah: "One falls down from his constitutional position." If a finger is diseased, it has to be amputated lest it pollute the entire body. Having rebelled against the principles of God consciousness, we are cut off from our original position. We have fallen.

Science of Self Realization: Chapter One :Learning the

Science of the Self

The central question, you say, is

"Where is the soul, and where does it come from?" That is not difficult to understand. We have already discussed that the soul is residing in the heart of the living entity and that it takes shelter in another body after death. Originally the soul comes from God. Just as a spark comes from fire, and when the spark falls down it appears to be extinguished, the spark of soul originally comes from the spiritual world to the material world. In the material world he falls down into three different conditions, which are called the modes of nature.

Srimad-Bhagavatam Canto 9: Chapter Twenty-four, Text 58

:PURPORT

"The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal, fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind." All the living entities are part and parcel of the Supreme Personality of Godhead and are as good as the Lord qualitatively, but quantitatively there is a great difference between them, for the Lord is unlimited whereas the living entities are limited. Thus the Lord possesses unlimited potency for pleasure, and the living entities have a limited pleasure potency. Anandamayo 'bhyasat (Vedanta-sutra 1.1.12). Both the Lord and the living entity, being qualitatively spirit soul, have the tendency for peaceful enjoyment, but when the part of the Supreme Personality of Godhead unfortunately wants to enjoy independently, without Krsna, he is put into the material world, where he begins his life as Brahma and is gradually degraded to the status of an ant or a worm in stool. This is called manah sasthanindriyani prakrti-sthani karsati.

Adi-lila: Chapter Fifteen, Text 9 :PURPORT

PURPORT

From the very beginning of His childhood life Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu introduced the system of observing a fast on the Ekadasi day. In the Bhakti-sandarbha by Srila Jiva Gosvami there is a quotation from the Skanda purna admonishing that a person who eats grains on Ekadasibecomes a murderer of his mother, father, brother and spiritual master, and even if he is elevated to a Vaikuntha planet, he falls down.

Prabhupada's Lectures

Bhagavad-gita 1974 740704BG.HON

After all, the living entity falls down from the spiritual world. Just like Jaya Vijaya. There is possibility, if you do not stick to the spiritual principle, even if you are in Vaikuntha, you will fall down, what to speak of this material world? Because in the Vaikuntha or in the spiritual world, no contaminated soul can stay there. He will fall down.

Prabhupada's Lectures

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1972 720520SB.LA

"Whatever you want, you take." He has given you full liberty. Because we have come to this material world to enjoy. Enjoy means sense gratification. And sense gratification standard is according to the body. A king's body, his sense gratification, and a hog's body, his sense gratification, they are different. Because the bodies are different. A king cannot take anything which is not very nicely prepared, and a hog is satisfied with stool. Why? A differe body. Deha-yogena dehinam. There are... The whole thing is sense gratification. Here, anyone who has come... Indriyartha artha-vadinah. Their only aim is sense gratification. That's all. Anyone. Beginnin from Brahma down to the ant. Material life means a desire for sense gratification. They're fallen because they wanted to gratify their senses. They cannot remain in Vaikuntha world. In the Vaikuntha world, only the one, the Supreme Lord, His senses should be satisfied not anyone's else. That is called bhakti.

Prabhupada's Lectures

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1972 720615SB.LA

Then trees, plants. In this way, passing through different species of life, the living entity ... Jiva-jatisu. Jiva-jatisu, in different species of life, he is transmigrating, one after another, one after another. Bhradmadbhih purusaih. Purusa. Purusa means the living entity. The living entity is described here "purusa" because he wants to enjoy. Purusa is the enjoyer. Actually enjoyer is Krsna, but we are imitating Krsna. We want to become God. That is the Mayavada philosophy. That is our trouble. I am trying to imitate something which I cannot. Suppose if I want to be God, is it possible to become God? But they are trying to be. Bhramadbhih purusaih. So in this way, for this misunderstanding, he is falsely trying to have happiness through so many species of life. "Let me enter this life, let me enter that life, that life, that life, that ..." In this way he falls down. He is fallen already from Vaikuntha planet. He is fallen in this material world, and he is again trying to make progress.

Lectures

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1975 750522SB.MEL

Devotee (10): Will that mean taking initiation from another guru or will he remain your eternal servant?

Madhudvisa: His question was when we take initiation from you, we understand that we become your eternal servitors.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Madhudvisa: But if we have to come again to another birth...

Prabhupada: But if you remain eternally in the instruction... And if you fall from the instruction, how you can remain eternal? You have to stay on the platform. Then eternally you are safe. If you fall down from the platform, then it is your fault. Just like we are all in the Vaikuntha planet. Now, we wanted to enjoy this material world. We have fallen down, just like Jaya-Vijaya. Now we are trying to go back again. Therefore we say, "Go back to home, back to Godhead."

Prabhupada's Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1971 710730SB.LON

Guest (3): Swamiji, can you tell us why we're in this material contamination? Why is is that the spirit soul has material contamination?

Prabhupada: That is the slight independence of the spirit soul. As soon as the spirit soul wants to enjoy for himself... Just like many boys gives up the association of the parents and he wants to enjoy this material world in his own way, without the sanction of the father and mother. He has got the right. Similarly, although we are all sons of God, or Krsna, we have got the independence to give up His company and enjoy this material world. That is contamination.

Guest (3): And do we all

originate from Krsna?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Prabhupada's Lectures Srimad-Bhagavatam 1972 720928SB.LA

We are sparks of fire.

So with the fire, if the sparks are ``fut-put''... You see sometimes, the sparks; it looks very beautiful. The same spark, as soon as falls down from the fire, extinguished. The fiery quality immediately extinguished. So our material condition is like that. We have given up the company of Krsna, and we wanted to be happy in this material world; therefore we are suffering. So same spark, particle of carbon, if you put again to the fire, it will again become red hot and fire. So this is Krsna consciousness movement, that we are trying the sparks, which by chance has fallen down from the fire, to pick it up again and put it in the fire. That is real happiness.

Evening Darshan Washington D.C., July 8, 1976 760708ED.WDC

Prabhupada: So how they did fall? They are from Vaikuntha. They are Krsna's personal associates, keeping the doorkeepers. How did they fell down? Anyway, there is chance of falling down at any moment.

Devotee (4): Well, in his family they wanted to enjoy the material world.

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, the falldown is there. So because we are living entities, we are not as powerful as Krsna, therefore we may fall down from Vaikuntha at any moment. Iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa. Find out this verse. Pusta Krsna:

iccha-dvesa samutthena dvandva-mohena bharata sarva-bhutani

sammoham sarge yanti parantapa

"O scion of Bharata [Arjuna], O conqueror of the foe, all living entities are born into delusion, overcome by the dualities of desire and hate."

Prabhupada: Purport. Pusta

Krsna: "The real constitutional position of the living entity is that of subordination to the Supreme Lord, who is pure knowledge. When one is deluded into separation from this pure knowledge, he becomes controlled by illusory energy and cannot understand the Supreme Personality of Godhead. . . .

Prabhupada: So even in the

Vaikuntha, if I desire that "Why shall I serve Krsna? Why not become Krsna?" I immediately fall down. That is natural. A servant is serving the master, sometimes he may think that "If I could become the master." They are thinking like that, they are trying to become God. That is delusion. You cannot become God. That is not possible. But he's wrongly thinking.

Vipina: Why doesn't Krsna protect

us from that desire?

Prabhupada: He's protecting. He says,

"You rascal, don't desire, surrender unto Me." But you are rascal, you do not do this.

Vipina: Why doesn't He save me

from thinking like that?

Prabhupada: That means you lose

your independence.

Vipina: And no love.

Letter to: Upendra :

69-10-27 Tittenhurst

Regarding your question, in one sense both you and Mahapurusa are right. The fact is that after the dissolution of the Universe the living entities remain in slumber within Maha Visnu, and again when the creation takes place they are impregnated in their original position and they come out in different species of life. By gradual evolutionary process, when they come to the human form there is good chance of getting out of the repeated birth and death, and one can enter into the Spiritual Realm. But if one loses this chance he is again put into the cycle of birth and death. The conditioned souls are always within the Maha Visnu Form, whereas the liberated souls in Vaikuntha, they are engaged in the service of the Lord. Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.

Prabhupada's Lectures

Bhagavad-gita 1968 680610BG.MON

Mahapurusa: If the living entity is in the material world and he's an expansion of the marginal energy, then he's... And he can purify himself and become eligible to enter into the spiritual world and Krsna, but can he still fall as an expansion of the marginal energy?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Prabhupada's Lectures

Bhagavad-gita 1973 730927BG.BOM

Just like the example is given that there is fire and the sparks are dancing, but some of the sparks fall down, from the fire falls down on the ground. So one spark falls on the water, one spark falls on the dry grass, and one spark falls on the wet grass. These are three conditions. So when we fall down from the spiritual world... As part and parcel we are in the spiritual, our position in the spiritual world. But when we fall down within this material world, we fall down in such way; some is fallen down on the water, some is fallen down on the dry grass, some is fallen on the wet grass.

Lectures

Bhagavad-gita 1975 750215BG.MEX

Now any question?

Hrdayananda translating: He says that if we are originally in the spiritual world and full of knowledge, how can we try to lord it over or, in other words, how can we try to do something which actually cannot be done. And if we are originally full of pleasure, then why would we accept an inferior position?

Prabhupada: That I have already explained, that although you have got the God's qualities, but you are very small. Just like a big fire and the sparks of the fire, similarly, God is big fire, and we are like sparks of the fire. When the sparks come down from the fire, it becomes extinguished. So because we are very small, very... I have already given you the dimension. As soon as we become out of the big fire, in touch with God, then we become extinguished. So somehow or other, if you are, again go to the fire, you have your original, brightened, I mean, illuminating quality, the spark. So at the present moment, somehow or other, being fallen in this material condition, we have lost our godly qualities. We can cure that, just like a diseased man lost his appetite, but by treatment he can again awaken his appetite and eat properly. So we, being very small--we may say, "a small god"--therefore we fall under the clutches of maya, illusion, but it can be cured. We can again revive our original position.

Prabhupada's Lectures

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1972 720619SB.LA

Cyuta means "fall down."

So God's another name is Acyuta, never falls down. Just like we living entities, we fall down. From spiritual world, we fall down. Because we have fallen down, therefore we have got this material body. But Krsna, or God, never falls down.

Prabhupada's Lectures

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1974 741003SB.MAY

We have got practical experience. Burning quality becomes extinguished. So when we fall down from the spiritual world, we come to the material world, our spiritual quality becomes extinguished. That we have to revive. That we have to revive.

Prabhupada's Lectures

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1974 741105SB.BOM

There are, in the spiritual world, there are Vaikunthalokas. There are inhabitants, the devotees. They're all liberated persons. They're aksara. They do not fall down. Ksara aksara. We are ksaras. We have fallen down in this material world. But there are devotees in the spiritual world, in the Vaikunthaloka, they never come down. Never come down in this material world, but they are also persons like us, but eternal persons, with full knowledge and life of blissfulness. That is the difference between them and us. So that is tattva-jnana.

Prabhupada's Lectures

Srimad-Bhagavatam 1974 741221SB.BOM

So bruhi karanayor asya sad-asac ca yad-atmakam. So the uttama purusa, Purusottama, just like Krsna or Kapiladeva, They come within this material world, but they are not affected. But we are affected. We are, according to our desire, conditioned. We are affected by the different modes of material nature. It is described in the Vedic literature just like the fire and the spark. The fire is always blazing, but the sparks coming out of the fire, they sometime fall down. And this falling down is described that if the spark falls on some dry grass, then immediately the grass is also ignited into fire. That is sattva-guna. And rajo-guna means on the ground. It gradually, the ignition, the fire of the spark, becomes finished. And if the spark falls down on some water, then immediately it is extinguished. Similarly, when we come down from the spiritual world on account of desire, iccha-dvesa samutthena sarge yanti parantapa, by our iccha, Krsna gives us to fulfill our desires.

Letter to: Jananivasa : 67-08-27 Vrindaban

Please accept my blessings. I am very glad to recieve your letter of 8/20, and glad to hear that everything is going so nicely at our newest center. It all sounds very beautiful, and I am very anxious to come to you personally. Perhaps in October I shall go directly from here to San Francisco, and then to Santa Fe, before going to N.Y. About your question: The Spirit Soul is certainly eternal and changeless; and the fall is superficial, just like the relation between father and son cannot be broken ever. Now we are simply in a phase of forgetfulness, and this forgetfulness is called Maya. There is a nice example in the waning of the moon. To use the moon appears to be changing, but in fact the moon is always the same. So as eternal servitors of Krishna--our constitutional position--we fall down when we try to become the enjoyer, imitating Krishna. That is our downfall.

Letter to: Sivananda : 68-04-19 New York

Please accept my blessings. Hope you are well. I am so much pleased that you are studying seriously our Krishna Consciousness philosophy. Please continue with your sincere efforts for Krishna. Now, regarding your question about Brahma, he may be chosen either from the liberated or the conditioned souls. In this case Brahma is a liberated soul from the beginning; therefore there is no contradiction that Brahma can be Haridasa Thakura. Those who are conditioned souls are eternally so, which means that it is never possible to trace out how long ago the conditioned existence began. We simply say that misuse of the little independence we have got creates so much trouble for us. But now by adopting Krishna Consciousness, we may finish this conditioned life immediately. That is Krishna Consciousness.

Letter to: Aniruddha : 68-11-14 Los Angeles

Your next question, ``Is a pure devotee eternally liberated and if so is he at any time a conditioned soul? We are eternally conditioned, but as soon as we surrender to Krishna do we then become eternally liberated? When Lord Christ appeared he seemed to be conditioned in his growth. Was he a specific incarnation or a conditioned soul who became liberated?'' You are not eternally conditioned. You are eternally liberated but since we have become conditioned on account of our desire to enjoy materialistic way of life, from time immemorial, therefore it appears that we are eternally conditioned. Because we cannot trace out the history or the date when we became conditioned, therefore it is technically called eternally conditioned. Otherwise the living entity is not actually conditioned. A living entity is always pure. But he is prone to be attracted by material enjoyment and as soon as he agrees to place himself in material enjoyment, he becomes conditioned, but that is not permanent.

Letter to: Rayarama : 68-12-02 Los Angeles

The answer to your question about the marginal energy is that the jiva soul is always called marginal energy whether he is in the spiritual world or in the material world. There are instances where marginal energy jiva souls have fallen from the spiritual world, just like Jaya and Vijaya. So the potency to fall under the influence of the lower energy is always there. And thus the individual jiva soul is called as Krishna's marginal energy.

Letter to: Upendra : 69-10-27 Tittenhurst

Constitutionally every living entity, even if he is in the Vaikuntha Loka, has chance of falling down. Therefore the living entity is called marginal energy. But when the falldown has taken place for the conditioned soul is very difficult to ascertain. Therefore two classes are designated: eternally liberated and eternally conditioned. But for arguments sake, a living entity being marginal energy, he can't be eternally conditioned. The Time is so unlimited that the conditioned souls appear to be eternally so, but from the philosophical view he cannot be eternally conditioned. Since we cannot trace out when we have become conditioned, there is no use of arguing on this point. Better to take care first how we can get rid of this conditional existence; as much as a patient should take care for treating his disease more, and less waste his time in finding out the cause of his disease.

Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-02-27 Los Angeles

Regarding your questions concerning the spirit souls falling into Maya's influence, it is not that those who have developed a passive relationship with Krsna are more likely to fall into nescient activities. Usually anyone who has developed his relationship with Krsna does not fall down in any circumstance, but because the independence is always there, the soul may fall down from any position or any relationship by misusing his independence. But his relationship with Krsna is never lost, simply it is forgotten by the influence of Maya, so it may be regained or revived by the process of hearing the Holy Name of Krsna and then the devotee engages himself in the service of the Lord which is his original or constitutional position. The relationship of the living entity with Krsna is eternal as both Krsna and the living entity are eternal; the process is one of revival only, nothing new.

Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles

Regarding your questions about how and from where did the conditioned souls fall, your first question if someone has a relationship with Lord Krsna on Krsnaloka, does he ever fall down? The souls are endowed with minute independence as part of their nature and this minute independence may be utilized rightly or wrongly at any time, so there is always the chance of falling down by misuse of one's independence. But those who are firmly fixed up in devotional service to Krsna are making proper use of their independence and so they do not fall down.

Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-04-25 Los Angeles

Regarding your second question, have the conditioned souls ever seen Krsna? Were they with the Lord before being conditioned by the desire to lord it over material nature? Yes, the conditioned souls are parts and parcels of the Lord and thus they were with Krsna before being conditioned. Just as the child must have seen his father because the father places the child in the womb of the mother, similarly each soul has seen Krsna or the Supreme Father. But at that time the conditioned souls are resting in the condition called susupti which is exactly deep sleep without dream, or anesthetized state, therefore they do not remember being with Krsna when they wake up in the material world and become engaged in material affairs. I hope this will satisfy your questions.

Letter to: Revatinandana : 70-06-13 Los Angeles

The next question, about the living entities falling down in this material world are not from the impersonal brahman. Existence in the impersonal brahma is also within the category of non-Krsna consciousness. Those who are in the brahman effulgence they are also in the fallen condition, so there is no question of falling down from a fallen condition. When fall takes place, it means falling down from the non-fallen condition.

Letter to: Jagadisa : 70-07-09 Los Angeles

Regarding your several questions: Where are the spirit souls coming from that are taking microbe bodies? It is not a matter of any particular body. These spirit souls and all spirit souls are coming from Vaikuntha, but in these material worlds they are taking various grades of bodies according to their material activities. There is no ``new'' soul. ``New'' and ``old'' are due to this material body, but the soul is never born and never dies, so if there is no birth how there can be new soul?

Letter to: Sriman Stan : 70-11-17 Bombay

We are all originally situated on the platform of Krsna consciousness in our eternal personal relationship of love of Krsna. But due to forgetfulness we become familiar with the material world or Maya.

Letter to: Dr. Bigelow: : 71-01-20 Allahabad

The central question you say is ``where is the soul and where does it come from?'' That is not difficult to understand. We've already discussed how the soul is residing in the heart of the living entity and that it takes shelter after death in another body. Originally the soul comes from God. Just like a spark comes from fire, and when the spark falls down it appears to be extinguished. The spark soul originally comes from the spiritual world to the material world.

Letter Madhudvisa 91-05-14 No Place

Crow And Tal-Fruit Logic

We never had any occasion when we were separated from Krsna. Just like one man is dreaming and he forgets himself. In dream he creates himself in different forms: now I am the King discussing like that. This creation of himself is as seer and subject matter or seen, two things. But as soon as the dream is over, the "seen" disappears.

But the seer remains. Now he is in his original position.

Our separation from Krsna is like that. We dream this body and so many relationships with other things. First the attachment comes to enjoy sense gratification. Even with Krsna desire for sense gratification is there. There is a dormant attitude for forgetting Krsna and creating an atmosphere for enjoying independently. Just like at the edge of the beach, sometimes the water covers, sometimes there is dry sand, coming and going. Our position is like that, sometimes covered, sometimes free, just like at the edge of the tide. As soon as we forget, immediately the illusion is there. Just like as soon as we sleep, dream is there.

We cannot say therefore that we are not with Krsna. As soon as we try to become Lord, immediately we are covered by Maya. Formerly we were with Krsna in His lila or sport. But this covering of Maya may be of very, very, very, very long duration, therefore many creations are coming and going. Due to this long period of time it is sometimes said that we are ever-conditioned. But his long duration of time becomes very insignificant when one actually comes to Krsna consciousness. Just like in a dream we are thinking very long time, but as soon as we awaken we look at our watch and see it has been a moment only. Just like with Krsna's friends, they were kept asleep for one year by Brahma, but when they woke up and Krsna returned before them, they considered that only a moment had passed.

So this dreaming condition is called non-liberated life, and this is just like a dream. Although in this material calculation it is a long, long period, as soon as we come to Krsna consciousness then this period is considered as a second. For example, Jaya and Vijaya. They had their lila with Krsna, but they had to come down for their little mistake. They were given mukti, emerging into the Brahmasayujya after being killed three times as demons. This Brahmasayujya mukti is non-permanent. Every living entity wants pleasure, but Brahmasayujya is minus pleasure. There is eternal existence only. So when they do not find transcendental bliss, they fall down to make a compromise with material bliss. Just like Vivekananda founded so many schools and hospitals. So even Lord Brahma, he is still material and wants to lord it over. He may come down to become a germ, but then he may rise up to Krsna consciousness and go back to home, back to Godhead. This is the position.

So when I say Yes, there is eternal lila with Krsna, that means on the evidence of Jaya-Vijaya. Unless one develops full devotional service to Krsna, he goes up only up to Brahmasayujya but falls down. But after millions and millions of years of keeping oneself away from the lila of the Lord, when one comes to Krsna consciousness this period becomes insignificant, just like dreaming.

Because he falls down from Brahmasayujya, he thinks that may be his origin, but he does not remember that before that even he was with Krsna. So the conclusion is that whatever may be our past, let us come to Krsna consciousness and immediately join Krsna. Just like with a diseased man, it is a waste of time to try to find out how he has become diseased, better to spend time curing the disease.

On the top of the tree there is a nice tal-fruit. A crow went there and the fruit fell down, Some panditas, big big learned scholars saw this and discussed: the fruit fell due to the crow agitating the limb. No, the fruit fell simultaneously with the crow landing and frightened the crow so he flew away. No, the fruit was ripe and the weight of the crow landing broke it from the branch, and so on and so on. What is the use of such discussions? So whether you were in the Brahmasayujya or with Krsna in His lila, at the moment you are in neither, so the best policy is to develop your Krsna consciousness and go there, never mind what is your origin.

Brahmasayujya and Krsna lila--both may be possible, but when you are coming down from Brahmasayujya or when you are coming down from Krsna lila, that remains a mystery. But at the present moment we are in Maya's clutches, so at present our only hope is to become Krsna conscious and go back to Home, back to Godhead. The real position is servant of Krsna, and servant of Krsna means in Krsna lila. Directly or indirectly, always we are serving Krsna's lila. Even in dream. Just like we cannot go out of the sun when it is daytime, so where is the chance of going out of Krsna lila? The cloud may be there, it may become very gray and dim, but still the sunlight is there, everywhere, during the daytime. Because I am part and parcel of Krsna, I am always connected. My finger, even though it may be diseased, remains part and parcel of my body. Therefore, we try to treat it, cure it, because it is part and parcel. So Krsna comes Himself when we forget Him, or He sends His representative.

Awakening or dreaming, I am the same man. As soon as I awaken and see myself, I see Krsna. Cause and effect are both Krsna. Just like cotton becomes thread and thread becomes cloth, still, the original cause is cotton. Therefore, everything is Krsna in the ultimate sense. When we cannot contact Krsna personally, we contact His energies. So there is no chance to be outside Krsna's lila. But differences we see under different conditions. Just like in the pool of water and in the mirror the same me is reflecting, but in different reflections. One is shimmering, unsteady, one is clear and fixed. Except for being in Krsna consciousness, we cannot see our actual position rightly, therefore the learned man sees all living entities as the same parts and parcels of Krsna. Material existence is impersonal because my real personality is covered. But we should think that because I am now covered by this clay, I am diseased, and we should think that I must get to business to get myself uncovered, not wonder how I got this way. Now the fruit is there, take it and enjoy, that is your first business. God is not bound by cause. He can change, He is the Cause of all Causes. Now don't waste your time with this "Kaka taliya nyaya," crows and tal-fruit logic.

RESPONSE TO SOME POINTS IN BHANU SWAMI'S CRITIQUE OF MY PAPER ON THE ORIGIN OF THE JIVA,

by Drutakarma Dasa

In discussing the origin of the jiva, references to sastra directly dealing with this question are rare. But they are important. Evidence from Srimad-Bhagavatam is especially significant, because it is the ripened fruit of the tree of Vedic knowledge, composed by Srila Vyasadeva, the literary incarnation of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, as a commentary on the Vedanta Sutra. References from Srimad-Bhagavatam are thus superior to those from any other Vedic literature.

There is one section from Srimad-Bhagavatam that I cited in my paper, which I reproduce below. It comes from the Fourth Canto of Srimad-Bhagavatam, where a brahmana gives instruction to Queen Vaidarbhi after the death of her husband. It is clear from the purport that the brahmana is, within the allegory, Krsna Himself, the Supersoul.

Bhanu Swami has tried to downplay the importance of this section, so I want to here address this, and provide additional Sanskrit texts and purports by Srila Prabhupada.

In the section I previously quoted, the brahmana says to Vaidarbhi:

"Who are you? Whose wife or daughter are you? Who is the man lying there? It appears you are lamenting for this dead body. Don't you recognize Me? I am your eternal friend. You may remember that many times in the past you have consulted Me. My dear friend, even though you cannot immediately recognize Me, can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world. My dear gentle friend, both you and I are exactly like two swans. We live together in the same heart, which is just like the Manasa lake. Although we have been living together for many thousands of years, we are still far away from our original home." (SB 4.28.52-54).

I made a comment (on page 5 of my paper) about the part of this passage where the brahmana says:

". . . can't you remember that in the past you had a very intimate friend? Unfortunately, you gave up My company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world."

I said: "This statement confirms that the jiva enters the material world . . . from a direct relationship with Krsna."

BHANU SWAMI: "This conclusion he [Drutakarma] assumes from the statement: `in the past you had a very intimate friend.' To me this refers to relation with paramatma which [is] mentioned in the verses, and relationship with paramatma is at best neutral rasa. When it refers to friend, the lord is the friend to all eternally, though the jiva does not recognize him as friend."

RESPONSE: The friend is not only paramatma but ultimately Krishna Himself, who is appearing now in the form of Supersoul to speak to Vaidarbhi about the former intimate relationship she had with Him.

Srila Prabhupada said:

"The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Paramatma, appeared before the queen as a brahmana, but why didn't He appear in His original form of Sri Krsna?" (SB 4.28.51 purport).

This question indicates that it could just as well have been Sri Krsna who addressed the words "in the past you had a very intimate friend" to the Queen.

Prabhupada answered the question thus:

"Srila Visvanatha Cakravarti Thakura remarks that unless one is very highly elevated in loving the Supreme Personality of Godhead, one cannot see Him as He is." (SB 4.28.51 purport).

The question and its answer suggest that the original intimate friendly relationship of the Queen was with Krsna, and not His Supersoul expansion.

Also, in text 4.29.4, Narada Muni, who told the story of the brahmana and Queen Vaidarbhi, said:

yo 'vijnatahrtas tasya

purusasya sakhesvarah

yan na vijnayate pumbhir

namabhir va kriya-gunaih

"The person I have described as unknown is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, the master and eternal friend of the living entity. Since the living entities cannot realize the Supreme Personality of Godhead by material names, activities, or qualities, He remains everlastingly unknown to the conditioned soul."

The relevant synonyms are purusasya "of the living entity," sakha "the eternal friend," and isvarah "the master."

BHANU SWAMI [commenting on another portion of the brahmana's speech to Vaidarbhi]: "you gave up my company and accepted a position as enjoyer of this material world" does not necessarily imply direct rasa with Krsna. This verse itself does not indicate a previous spiritual relationship. Such a conclusion can only be drawn from the purport of verse 54.

REPLY: To me it seems that one would have a hard time getting around the clear implications of this statement. It is not true that the conclusion can only be drawn from the purport. It is there in the words themselves. The soul was in the company of Krsna, and gave up that company, and came to the material world. Since Supersoul is generally said to accompany the soul in the material world, the aspect of Krsna that the soul was keeping company with before it came to the material world must have been the Bhagavan aspect.

Also, I am not at all ashamed of drawing conclusions from Srila Prabhupada's purports to the Bhagavatam. The purport in question (of verse 54) reads:

"The original home of the living entity and the Supreme Personality of Godhead is the spiritual world. In the spiritual world both the Lord and the living entities live together very peacefully. Since the living entity remains engaged in the service of the Lord, they both share a blissful life in the spiritual world. However, when the living entity wants to enjoy himself, he falls down into the material world. Even while in that position, the Lord remains with him as the Supersoul, his intimate friend."

This purport goes exactly along with what the Bhagavatam verses say. As Vaisnavas, from whatever sampradaya, we are obligated to accept the words of Srimad Bhagavatam, which shed direct, clear light on the specific question before us. The interpretation that the original intimate friend is nothing more than the paramatma does not hold up. The clear message is that the original friend is Krsna, according to Srila Prabhupada and Narada Muni, and when the jiva gives up his relationship with Him, He accompanies the jiva, still behaving as His intimate friend, but now as Supersoul, rather than Govinda. Read the above purport, compare it with the Bhagavatam texts, and then compare it with what I say--and see if they are not all in agreement.

Everything else mentioned in Bhanu Swami's comments on my paper can be judged properly if this section of the Fourth Canto of the Bhagavatam is understood in terms of the direct meaning of the words and Srila Prabhupada's purport.

The purports to text 4.28.53 shed some more light on this. Srila Prabhupada says:

"By misusing his independence, the living entity falls down from the service of the Lord and takes a position in this material world as an enjoyer." Also: "The vibbhinamsa expansions, the marginal potencies of the Lord, are the living entities. When the living entities desire to enjoy themselves, they develop a consciousness of duality and come to hate the service of the Lord. In this way the living entities fall into the material world."

One might say this is just Srila Prabhupada's particular way of explaining things. So let us go back to the Bhagavatam texts.

Text 4.28.55:

sa tvam vihaya mam bandho

gato gramya-matir mahim

vicaran padam adraksih

kayacin nirmitam striya

"My dear friend, you are now My very same friend. Since you left Me, you have become more and more materialistic, and not seeing Me, you have been traveling in different forms throughout this material world, which was created by some woman."

the important synonyms: sah "that swan," tvam "yourself," vihaya "leaving," mam "Me," bandho "O friend," gatah "went," gramya "material," matih "consciousness," mahim "to earth."

It is very hard to get around the implications of this. Krsna and the jiva were friends before the jiva entered the material world. The jiva left Him.

This follows the previous verse, which said:

"Although we have been living together for many thousands of years [as soul and Supersoul], we are still far away from our original home."

This means that Krsna and the jiva are from the same place, which is called their home--the home of both of them.

BHANU SWAMI: Often dwelling on individual word meanings such as "again", "reinstated," "forgetfulness" cannot be conclusive to show a previous direct relationship.

REPLY: Consider this text (4.28.59):

tasmims tvam ramaya sprsto

ramamano 'sruta-smrtih

tat-sangad idrsim prapto

dasam papiyasam prabho

"My dear friend, when you enter such a body along with the woman of material desires, you become overly absorbed in sense enjoyment. Because of this you have forgotten your spiritual life. Due to your material conceptions, you are placed in various material conditions."

Asruta smrtih is translated by Srila Prabhupada as "without remembrance of spiritual existence." The nature of that spiritual existence, intimate friendship with Krsna has been described in previous verses. Here it is clear that dwelling on the individual word meaning "forgetfulness" is in fact conclusive.

Also text 4.28.64

evam sa manaso hamso

hamsena pratibodhitah

sva-sthas tad vyabhicarena

nastam apa punah smrtim

"In this way both swans live together in the heart. When the one swan is instructed by the other, he is situated in his constitutional position. This means he regains his original Krsna consciousness, which was lost because of his material attraction."

Very clear translation. The living being was originally Krsna conscious. And he lost this Krsna consciousness because of material attraction. This verse does not say that the jiva was never at any time a servant of Krsna.

The Sanskrit here is also very clear.

The synonyms given by Srila Prabhupada are nastam "which was lost", apa "gained", punah "again", smrtim "real memory."

In other words, that which was lost is regained. I do not see how anyone can argue with this. It is right there in the Bhagavatam, in the Sanskrit. And the purport, naturally, goes right along with it. Here follow some excerpts.

"When the inferior swan is separated from the other swan, he is attracted to material enjoyment. This is the cause of his falldown. When he hears the instructions of the other swan, he understands his real position and is again revived to his original consciousness." Bhag. 4.28.64 purport

"The word sva-sthah, meaning `situated in one's original position,' is very significant in this verse. When one gives up his unwanted attitude of superiority, he becomes situated in his original position. The word tad- vyabhicarena is also significant, for it indicates that when one is separated from God due to disobedience, his real sense is lost. Again, by the grace of Krsna and guru, he can be properly situated in his liberated position. These verses are spoken by Srila Narada Muni, and his purpose in speaking them is to revive our consciousness." Bhag. 4.28.64 purport

Narada Muni further states in text 4.29.26:

yadatmanam avijnaya

bhagavantam param gurum

purusas tu visajjeta

gunesu prakrteh sva-drk

"The living entity by nature has minute independence to choose his own good or bad fortune, but when he forgets his supreme master, the Personality of Godhead, he gives himself up to unto the modes of material nature."

The important synonyms are atmanam "the Supreme Soul," avijnaya "forgetting," bhagavantam "the Supreme Personality of Godhead," param "supreme," gurum "the instructor," indicating that one forgets the Supreme Lord Krsna. Note the word bhagavantam, clearly indicating Krsna, not simply the Supersoul.

In his purport, Srila Prabhupada states:

"It is clearly stated herein that the living entity has a little independence, indicated by the word sva-drk, meaning `one who can see his own welfare.' The living entity's constitutional position is very minute, and he can be misled in his choice. He may choose to imitate the Supreme Personality of Godhead. A servant may desire to start his own business and imitate his master, and when he chooses to do so, he may leave the protection of his master. Sometimes he is a failure, and sometimes he is successful. Similarly, the living entity, part and parcel of Krsna, starts his own business to compete with the Lord." Bhag. 4.29.26 purport

It is clear that originally there is a master-servant relationship going on, and that it gets forgotten. Liberation means remembering it.

Narada Muni also says (4.29.48):

svam lokam na vidus te vai

yatra devo janardanah

ahuh dhumra-dhiyo vedam

sakarmakam atad-vidah

"Those who are less intelligent accept the Vedic ritualistic ceremonies as all in all. They do not know that the purpose of the Vedas is to understand one's own home, where the Supreme Personality of Godhead lives. Not being interested in their real home, they are illusioned and search after other homes."

The important synonyms are svam "own," lokam "abode," na "never," viduh "know," te "such persons," vai "certainly," yatra "where," devah "the Supreme Personality of Godhead," janardanah "Krsna, or Visnu."

Here Narada Muni speaks of the home of the living entity as svam lokam, his own planet, where Krsna lives, not some borderline.

Srila Prabhupada comments:

"Generally people are not aware of their interest in life--to return home, back to Godhead. People do not know about their real home in the spiritual world." Bhag. 4.29.48

In his comments on my paper, Bhanu Swami seems to imply that Srila Prabhupada's purports, in stating that the jiva has forgotten its original relationship with Krsna, somehow go beyond what is stated in the Bhagavatam texts themselves. I do not find this to be the case.

SOME COMMENTS ON THE USE OF QUOTES FROM JAIVA DHARMA

Drutakarma Dasa

1050 Grand Avenue

San Diego, CA 92109

(619) 274-1926

To those who read this, I offer my most humble obeisances. All glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada. Let me also offer my obeisances at the lotus feet of Sri Sri Radha-Giridhari, who are currently giving me shelter, and let me also offer my humble obeisances at the lotus feet of Sri Caitanya Mahaprabhu, Prabhu Nityananda, Sri Advaita, Gadadhara, Srivas, and all the devotees of the Lord. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna, Krsna Krsna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama, Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare.

In my previous paper on the constitutional position of the soul, I relied solely on Srila Prabhupada's books. That is my general practice. But since others have sought to go outside Srila Prabhupada's books and have managed to raise doubts and questions on that basis, I have felt compelled to consult the work most often cited.

Those who insist categorically that the jiva has no prior relationship of service with Krsna before entering the material world have quoted Jaiva Dharma by Bhaktivinoda Thakura in support of their views.

The quoting has been quite selective. Here I will quote some additional materials that support the point of view I outlined in my paper on the original constitutional position of the soul--namely that the conditioned soul has forgotten his eternal relationship with Krsna.

"When Krsna wills to form a thing, a concomitant nature goes hand in hand with the formation of the thing, and that nature is its eternal characteristic. When that thing is contaminated due to unforseen events, or is perverted by coming in contact with another thing, then its nature is also perverted or changed. . . . This changed or perverted nature is not inborn or innate in the thing, but casual or accidental . . . . As for example, water is a thing, liquidity is its property. When it happens to be ice, solidity or rigidity becomes it casual or accidental property and is current with the real nature. In fact, causation or accident is not eternal but temporary cause, and vanishes with the disappearance of its cause. But nature that springs up with the formation of a thing is eternal and remains latent though it is perverted or changed. That in course of time or due to favourable circumstances, the real nature of a thing assumes its original character, admits of no doubt." Jaiva Dharma p. 6, 1975 edition

Comment: S