Divinity And Humanity

BY GIRIRAJ SWAMI

EDITORIAL, Nov 25 (VNN) — WHAT TO SAY, HOW TO FEEL

A talk by Giriraj Swami, Visalia, California, 28 October 2001

Devotees have asked me to speak about the terrorist attacks on September 11--how to reply to people's questions and how to respond to people's distress.

But before I address the issue directly, I would like to say that when we preach, as far as possible, we should speak according to our realization. Srila Prabhupada said that if someone speaks according to his or her realization, the message will touch the hearts of the audience, even if what one says is simple. If our realization is that chanting Hare Krishna makes us happy, then we can just say, "If you chant Hare Krishna, you'll feel happier." If taking prasadam in the association of devotees makes us feel good, then we just repeat the fact. At the same time, however, we do have to consider the audience. We may have many things in our heart, but not everything is appropriate for everyone. So we have to be sensitive to the person or people we're speaking to.

Regarding the terrorist attacks, people's feelings right now are such that we cannot just say that the people in the World Trade Center simply suffered their karma. At the same time, the laws of karma do explain many phenomena in the world better than any other explanation. So I thought we could begin by discussing the laws of karma.

Last year when His Holiness Radhanath Swami came to stay with me in Santa Barbara he raised a similar question: what do we tell people who ask about the Holocaust? He said he had given many talks in universities where students had asked, "What about the slaughter of so many millions of Jews?" And Radhanath Swami told me that he couldn't just say, "Well, it was their karma." The audience just wouldn't accept that six million people, including children and rabbis, were just suffering the results of their karma. So we discussed for many hours, and many of the ideas we discussed in relation to the Holocaust also apply to the attack on the World Trade Center.

In general, the scriptures deal with the material world in absolute terms. But nothing in the material world is really absolute. For example, we talk about the three modes of nature, but Srila Prabhupada himself said that you never find any one of the three modes in a pure state in the material world. They are always combined with other modes, giving rise to almost infinite varieties of expression. But the scriptures give the idealized description of pure ignorance, pure passion, and pure goodness so that we can get a sense of how to recognize them and how they operate in the world. Yet in reality the modes are always mixed. Similarly, in discussing the laws of karma, it is my conviction that we cannot simply say that at any given moment a person is getting exactly what he or she deserves. Even the Bhagavad-gita confirms that the laws of action and reaction are subtle and complex--and difficult to understand.

We read the story of King Nrga in the Krsna book (SB 10.64). He was a very pious and generous king, and he gave a cow in charity to a brahmana. Somehow the cow wandered back into the King's herd, and the King inadvertently gave the same cow to another brahmana. As the cow was being taken away by the second brahmana, the first brahmana came and claimed it, and the two began to argue. Finally they came before the King and accused him of taking back the cow he had already given in charity. The King offered each brahmana 100,000 cows in place of the disputed one, but each brahmana insisted that the cow that had been given to him was his and could not be taken back under any circumstance. Thus the brahmanas refused the King's offer and left in anger, thinking that the King had given property in charity to a brahmana and taken it back, which is considered a great sin. At the time of his death, King Nrga was given the choice either to enjoy his pious reactions first or to suffer his sinful reactions first. He thought, "First let me get the sinful reactions out of the way, and then I'll enjoy the pious results." So he chose to suffer his sinful reactions first. And immediately he was turned into a lizard.

Now if we were to say that the King got what he deserved, that he became a lizard because he cheated a brahmana, it's not really the whole story. Yes, he got what he deserved, but he also deserved other things. He also deserved rewards for all the good he had done, and those rewards were awaiting him. So when we see someone either enjoying or suffering, we may conclude that the suffering they're getting is what they deserve, or the enjoyment they're getting is what they deserve, but there may be more to it. Thus, even if we admit that an innocent victim has suffered because of an evil demon, the victim will be compensated in the next life, and the culprit will be punished. King Nrga was ultimately delivered from his miserable lizard body by the grace of the Lord, because while performing pious activities, he also thought of Lord Krishna.

Advaita Candra Prabhu brought up the question, "Why do bad things happen to good people?" And he mentioned a book, a bestseller called "When Bad Things Happen to Good People," written by a rabbi. This question is very old. When I was in high school my favorite teacher was my English teacher, and she was an extraordinary lady. Practically at the beginning of the first class she announced that she was a theist. She said that some people say that one should not bring one's beliefs into the classroom, but she said everyone, even the atheist, brings beliefs into the classroom. So she felt that if she was straightforward about her beliefs and notified the students, there was no harm.

One of the books we studied was a play by Archibald MacLeish based on the story of Job from the Bible. Job was "blameless and upright, one who feared God and turned away from evil," but Job was tested. First he lost his vast property and devoted children. Still, Job did not turn from righteousness or blame the Lord. Then Job's body was afflicted with untold suffering, inside and outside, from head to foot. Finally, even faithful Job questioned the ways of the Lord and challenged: "Why are You doing this to me?" Job is the epitome of the good person being tested by God by being forced to suffer for reasons he cannot comprehend. So in the play Archibald MacLeish repeated one couplet that summarized the whole issue: "If God is God, then He is not good. If God is good, then He is not God." Here God means the all-powerful, the Almighty. If God is all-powerful, then He is not good, because how could the almighty Lord allow so many bad things to happen to good people? And if God is good, then He is not God, because how could a good Lord allow bad things to happen if He had the power to stop them?

Krishna consciousness can resolve the issue because it allows for the free will of the individual even in the presence of the almighty Lord. Although God is all-powerful, He chooses not to interfere with the minute independence of the living entities, because what He really wants, and what is really in the best interest of the living entities, is for us to develop our loving relationship with God. And as Prabhupada often said, love is voluntary. You can't force someone to love you. So because God ultimately wants us to love Him, He doesn't force. And Prabhupada gave the example that if a father forces a child, even if the child obeys, within himself the child will resent the father. And finally the child may rebel. So force does not work in loving affairs.

Now if we take the terrorists, they have their free will and they chose to do what they did, and God did not interfere. It doesn't mean that He is not all-good or that is He is not all-powerful, but because the ultimate goal for every living entity is to develop love for Godhead, and because love is voluntary, the all-good God does not interfere and force. He gives all good instructions to the living entities through the Bhagavad-gita and through great sages and saintly persons at different times in different places. And He gives all good instructions to the living entities from within the heart. Still, he does not interfere with their minute independence--although they are responsible and obliged to suffer the consequences for their actions.

Here someone may concede that the father does not want to interfere with the minute independence of the children: He gives them good advice but in the end he allows them to decide if they want to follow or not. But what if one child exploits another child, or beats another child, or kills one of the other children? Isn't the father's duty also to protect the innocent children from the aggressive children? And indeed it is. So we come back to the question, why did God allow thousands of people to be killed in the terrorist attacks?

We really cannot answer unless we discuss the immortality of the soul and life after death. The fact is that the soul is eternal. The souls of the people who died in the attacks have gone on to other destinations. And I believe that the people who were killed in the terrorist attacks will have better next lives because the severity of their punishment freed them from large amounts of sinful reactions or "bad karma."

Srila Prabhupada wrote in Srimad-Bhagavatam, citing the Manu-samhita, that it is in the interest of a murderer to suffer capital punishment because if he does not, then his present life is spoiled because he must suffer the inevitable consequences to his crime, and even the next life is spoiled because he still has to suffer the full reaction. So to award capital punishment to a murderer is actually in the interest of the murderer in two ways: The present life immediately ends, so he does not have to suffer in the present life. And then, according to scripture, the murderer punished with death is so purified of his sins that in his next life he may be promoted to higher planets. So, by analogy, I would say that the people who died in the World Trade Center attacks were purified of so much sinful reaction that they would be destined for a much better next life.

(But again, I am not suggesting that we say this to everyone, because we always have to consider what the audience can understand and appreciate.)

Another point is that the laws of karma are enforced by the demigod in charge of justice, Yamaraja. Generally the demigods do their duties perfectly because the Lord guides them. But the demigods are also living entities within the material world and in exceptional cases their decisions may be questioned. Here I cite the incident with Manduka Muni. Manduka Muni was a pious sage living in the forest, and some thieves took shelter in his ashram. When the police came to the ashram, they found the thieves with Manduka Muni and arrested them all. Manduka Muni was put to trial and the judge sentenced him to death by being pierced with a lance. Just when he was to be pierced, the king got the news and stopped the execution because Manduka was a great sage. And he personally apologized to the sage for what had happened.

The sage was very upset and went to Yamaraja. He challenged, "What did I do to be put to death by being pierced by a lance?" Yamaraja answered, "When you were a child you pierced an insect with a sharp piece of straw." Manduka Muni thought that Yamaraja had been too harsh with him. He had been a mere child, and he felt he didn't deserve such a harsh punishment. So he cursed Yamaraja to take birth as a sudra. And so Yamaraja took birth as Vidura, the son of Vyasadeva conceived through the womb of the maidservant of Pandu's mother. Thus Vidura became a half brother of Pandu and Dhrtarastra, but Dhrtarastra, and especially his son Duryodhana, so insulted Vidura that Vidura eventually left the palace to travel and take shelter of the holy places of pilgrimage.

Thus we come to another point, that when one is in a difficult situation, one can use the situation to become more God conscious. When Radhanath Swami and I were discussing the concentration camps, we considered that the religious people there could have become so God conscious that in the extermination chambers they gave up their bodies thinking of God and were liberated. As it was, most of them were there because of their religion and they knew what was coming. So some of them, perhaps many, could have given up their lives thinking of God and been liberated.

And although the general impression we get of the World Trade Center is that people were just running for their lives to get out of the buildings, it is also possible that some of them realized that they were going to die and surrendered to God. If people were buried under rubble or in other critical conditions, they could have come to the point where they thought of God and just surrendered to Him and were liberated.

But I do not think we can give a simple answer. The more one understands, the more things make sense, and to really understand takes time. It takes hearing and questioning and discussing.

But we have to be true to ourselves when we preach. For example, some days after the incident, Pusta Krishna Prabhu phoned me from Santa Cruz. He had been asked to speak at the center in San Jose. So before the talk he was thinking what he could say to the audience, most of whom were devotees, to increase their faith in Krishna. He thought that just speaking about the laws of karma wouldn't increase people's faith in Krishna. And just saying that the material world is a place of misery wouldn't increase people's faith in Krishna either. So what could he say to increase their faith?

On the way to the class he thought of the verse from the Eleventh Chapter of the Bhagavad-gita where Krishna says, "Time I am, the destroyer of the worlds." Then he quickly read through the entire Eleventh Chapter and came to the conclusion that, yes--"Time I am, the destroyer of worlds, come to engage all people."--Krishna creates the material world ultimately to destroy it. He gives us the material world because we want to enjoy. But He knows that the so-called happiness in the material world cannot compare to the ecstatic love in the spiritual world. He knows that it is in our best interest to give up our false attachment to the material world and to come to His loving service. So Krishna destroys the material world, sometimes by bits and pieces, so that we realize that the material world is not a happy place. It is not our real home. We have to realize that our real home, eternal home, is with Krishna, God, and thus we should come to His loving shelter. Pusta Krishna Prabhu said that his audience appreciated his class.

The next day I thought I might say something similar in our class in Carpinteria, but I couldn't. Although I accepted the truth of what Pusta Krishna Prabhu had said, my mood was different. Somehow my mood then was, how can we make the situation in the world better? And both ideas are in Prabhupada's books. In the preface to the Srimad-Bhagavatam Prabhupada says that the world is in need of a common cause to unite all people, and the common cause is Krishna, the Absolute Truth. And there are so many places in the Srimad-Bhagavatam where Prabhupada talks about solving the problems of the world, the conflicts and the wars, by educating people in Krishna consciousness.

And I guess I am also sympathetic or empathic by nature. I relate to the mood of the people I am with. The first Friday after the attack, the President of the United States asked people to go to their temples or churches or mosques to pray. So I did that. After our program in Carpinteria, I went to the special memorial service at the Jewish temple in Santa Barbara. And people were deeply affected. I met some of my sister's friends there, and one said she had been crying practically the whole week. Now when I talk to people and they are crying, I also feel like crying. I cannot just tell them that Krishna creates the material world to destroy it, even though it is true. It just doesn't come in my heart at that time. My heart wants to give them consolation more in terms of what they are feeling.

The incident affected people on such a deep level, not because they were worried they might get anthrax in the mail--that wasn't even an issue then--or that they might be attacked directly. But they felt a great sense of connectedness with the people who were affected. I spoke to one friend in particular for a long time. She asked, "What can I tell people who have been affected to console them?" I said, "Do you know any people who have been affected directly?" And she said, "No, but I feel I have been. So if I know how to console myself, then I'll know how to console them." Then we discussed that the soul is eternal, that the victims had lives before the present life, and that they will have lives after the present life. And although I didn't use the word karma or reincarnation, she understood that we were talking about reincarnation and in the end she herself said, "I'd like to discuss more and learn more about reincarnation. Because it's not part of our Jewish tradition, I'm not so familiar with the concept." But actually, reincarnation is accepted in some sections of Judaism even now. It's there in the Bible, and in early Christianity there were Christian sects that accepted reincarnation. Only later did the church fathers decide to proscribe reincarnation from the official church doctrine. So reincarnation is not really foreign to Judaism or Christianity.

But again, the main thing is the heart. And if our response, if what we feel in our heart goes into the heart of the audience, they'll feel better, and they'll like us. In a sense, the words we speak may be secondary to the care they feel from us, the support. But again, it also depends on the person, how much the individual is troubled with philosophical questions of how God could allow bad things to happen to good people. But sympathy and empathy are important in any relationship and any interaction. And one thing I can say about Srila Prabhupada is that he was very sympathetic to people's material miseries. His concern wasn't just theoretical and abstract, that people are suffering in the cycle of birth and death, so we must save them. He actually felt for their daily suffering, and I was surprised myself.

We had arranged a program for Srila Prabhupada in Madras. One day when we were driving in the car we passed a bus stand with a long line of people waiting for the bus. Only a few of them could actually fit under the shelter, and most of them were standing under the hot sun. When Srila Prabhupada saw the people standing in the heat waiting for the bus, he commented in a voice choked with compassion, "Oh, they have to stand in cue so long?" He was almost crying, and he had tears in his eyes. He was really feeling for the people having to stand for such a long time in the sun waiting for the bus.

Of course, we don't mean to suggest that he wanted to start a campaign to have more buses or to improve the bus stands. It just means that he felt for the day-to-day sufferings of people, but he knew that the real solution was Krishna consciousness. And therefore he translated his sympathy and empathy into his efforts to spread Krishna consciousness.

And I usually do that too. I may start thinking of other solutions. And frankly speaking, I do think of other solutions too, material solutions. But when I think about them carefully, I always find that they won't really work, and then I come back to Krishna consciousness.

One of the first European devotees in South Africa left South Africa to become a screenwriter in Los Angeles. Eventually she worked with an Indian film director named Mira Nair, who had made a film about homeless children in Bombay. So before meeting the screenwriter, I thought to see the film. I had lived in Bombay for years, and the film was accurate and true. The way Mira Nair made the film was itself extraordinary. She went onto the streets of Bombay and collected the homeless children. She listened to their stories. Then she wrote the script based on their stories, putting together various incidents. And then she used the same homeless children to play the roles of the children in the film. She didn't teach them how to act; she just taught them how to be natural in front the cameras and not to act. It was really an amazing film, and a moving experience to watch it.

In the end I felt we have to do something, not just for the children in Bombay, but for children in distress all over the world. I thought of various material solutions, especially for the children in Bombay because I had served there and knew people in welfare work there. But eventually I realized that the only real solution would be if people became Krishna conscious. So I translated all that feeling for the children into the will to spread Krishna consciousness.

And not only do the children suffer--the prostitutes and others also suffer. The film vividly portrayed how people take young girls and force them to act as prostitutes. Sometimes the girls' families are totally destitute and so desperate for money that they sell the girls to become prostitutes. It is so unfortunate what happens to them. But eventually I realized the only real solution is Krishna consciousness. And then I sent some letters to Bombay, to friends involved in social work there. I sent a message to a man who had helped Srila Prabhupada. Later he became involved in reforming the prostitutes. I guess when I was younger and more fanatical I thought he was just engaged in mundane welfare work, and we should all just spread Krishna consciousness. But after the film I sent a message to suggest that if he just added Krishna consciousness to what he was doing for the girls, the whole effort would become perfect.

In Bombay I also knew a very qualified woman who worked in slum areas and dealt with drug abuse, or substance abuse. When I was still in Bombay she would arrange programs for us in the slums and we would go and speak and do kirtana and distribute prasadam. So I wrote to her and encouraged her.

And if you really know what's going on in the world, it's bad. If we had any hopes of good coming from materialistic leaders--I don't want to be too harsh on them either--but my friend told me about an incident with some social workers and "experts." She recently attended an international conference on substance abuse in New Delhi with delegates from all over the world. Each day they would present papers and discuss the problem of substance abuse. But in the evenings, many of the delegates themselves would indulge in hard drugs. And the next day they would return to the conference to read their papers and discuss. (At least my friend includes spiritual values in her papers.) Some of the delegates invited her to join them at their parties, but she refused to indulge because she is a devotee. So her colleagues would become angry with her. It was so funny. One night the police busted many of the participants in the conference for substance abuse! And the delegates who were caught soon appealed to her to save them with some concocted story that they were doing research for her. (The police in the end offered to clear them of charges for "a small price.")

What I'm saying is that feeling for people or animals is not wrong--like the time we hit a squirrel on the way to a retreat and came back to aid it--and that such feelings naturally impel us to want to help. We then can translate such sentiments into helping people become Krishna conscious--if we're actually convinced that that is the best way to help them, which personally I am.

And in general--and I'll even go a step further here, and because you're all mature devotees you've probably realized it anyway--we don't really deny any human emotion in Krishna consciousness. I think a great example came when a newspaper publisher in Mauritius asked Srila Prabhupada a question: "Arjuna heard from God Himself, and Arjuna said he had understood the truth. Yet when Arjuna heard that his son was killed, he completely lost his composure and said, 'I am going to throw myself into the fire.'" So the publisher asked Prabhupada, "Isn't it ridiculous that he learned from God directly and then acted in such a contrary way?" And Prabhupada said, "No." Srila Prabhupada explained that Krishna spoke the Bhagavad-gita to Arjuna to convince him to fight, and that in the end Arjuna did fight. He did not act against the will of the Lord. "Although in theory we may understand, na hanyate hanyamane sarire, still, when our son dies we become affected. So temporarily Arjuna might have been disturbed when his son was killed.

Everyone becomes. But he did not stop his work. He was affected for the time being. That is natural. But finally he concluded, 'I shall fight.'" So he did his duty after all. And that was his victory.

Now extrapolating from that incident to ourselves, I conclude that it's not a disqualification to be affected if we lose a loved one. As Prabhupada said, that is natural; anyone would be affected. But Arjuna's glory is that he did his duty. Ultimately he obeyed the order of Krishna. So I think with us too, we might feel things that human beings feel, but if we continue chanting our rounds, following the principles, and offering our service, that is our victory--not that we have to be devoid of human emotions.

Now before we conclude, there is a devotee here who was just across the street from the World Trade Center when the attack took place. She witnessed the terror. It's not just the people who were injured or killed and their families and friends who were affected, but even the people who were just there and saw it were affected profoundly.

Madhusudan Prabhu: I would like to hear what she has to say.

Giriraj Swami: Then I'll give a brief introduction. This is Varsabhanavi-devi dasi. She works for Merrill Lynch in Johannesburg. Her organization offered her a course in New York City to help her develop her skills as a financial analyst, and the Merrill Lynch building is just across the street from the World Trade Center. That's where she was, and she watched it from there.

Varsabhanavi-devi dasi:

I remember just before the incident took place there were police sirens that were unrelated to the World Trade Center attack. So I heard these sirens. We were in the auditorium and the lecturer was speaking. We heard these sirens and I looked at my watch and it was 8.50 am. When I heard the sirens I was thinking, "I'm from South Africa where there is so much crime--hijackings, murders, robberies, rapes. We hear this sound all the time." I laughed because I was thinking that to the New Yorkers this must be something unusual, because America is generally regarded as a safe place.

Within seconds after that thought we all heard a huge bang and the building we were in just shook, literally shook. At that stage I was thinking that it was an earth tremor or an earthquake--something like that. Then the lecturer mentioned that this sounded exactly like the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993. We were stunned, but we still didn't know what was happening.

Then a few of our tutors ran into the auditorium and said that a plane had crashed into the World Trade Center. We all thought it was an accident. We didn't realize it was a terrorist attack. So we went to the next classroom. Many of my colleagues went to the window, and I also went. The World Trade Center was within our vision and flames were coming out of the building. The airplane was in the building already, and it was just horrific. In fact, many of my colleagues were hysterical. Many were crying. Personally I was just shocked, I was just stunned. When the flames were coming out of the building I was thinking, "There are so many people suffering in there." A year ago I had an accident with fire. I burnt part of my feet when hot oil fell onto them. It was extremely painful. So I could only imagine what they were going through in the building.

Then we saw people jumping out of the building. I remember one person in particular. He wore pants, shirt and tie, and his tie was flapping. It was really horrible. Actually many of them who had jumped out were trying to stay afloat. They were flapping their arms. I was thinking, "Oh, Krishna, please help them." We were witnessing this whole incident but we were completely helpless. We couldn't help them or do anything. So I was praying, "Please help them, Krishna."

About fifteen minutes later I saw the second airplane, and it was so deliberate. I was thinking that this was evil when the second airplane flew around the corner and just entered the second building. Everyone screamed. Until then everybody thought it was an accident, but when the second airplane came, then we were thinking that this is really no accident. And we were next to the building, and we were high up, and I was thinking I could die at any moment. There could be more planes around. I must start chanting. Now is the time, now is the test. But I couldn't chant. I was numb. I walked up and down the lecture room thinking I have to chant, but I couldn't.

There was one colleague of mine, Patrick. He is from Brazil. And he was sitting down and praying. I really admired him. He had his hand on the table and his head on his hand and he was just saying prayers. And I was thinking whether he was a Jew or a Muslim or a Christian or whatever, but he was praying at that time.

Then the building supervisor came up and told us, "I don't know what's happening, but you are not safe up here. Better come down." At that stage we were on the twenty-second floor. Everybody, although they were in shock, was very orderly. No one panicked. Everyone kept their cool and we all walked down the stairs.

When we got down there were people all over on the ground floor. Outside there were huge crowds everywhere. Police vehicles, ambulances, fire engines. Now when I think about it, those first fire engines--all those firemen left their bodies. There was chaos outside. I was thinking, better just stay inside and if I'm going to leave my body then I'll just stay here and chant the holy names. Before doing that I thought of my parents. I phoned my brother and told him what happened and that I was safe, I was okay, and not to worry about me.

Everyone was dumbfound and aimless. Then I took my chanting beads and sat on the floor and I was just chanting. It felt good. Then one of my colleagues came up to me and said, "It's really not safe here. We should really get out of here immediately." He took me out--I was going to stay put and just chant there--and outside was complete chaos. The buildings were in flames, police vehicles moving up and down, people just... I couldn't comprehend the disaster. Actually before this incident, I can still recall the mood of New York--it was very vibrant, happy and jolly. When this happened the entire mood just turned around. Anyway, we were walking down the street. Hoards of people were following.

About five minutes later one of the towers came crashing down. There was smoke everywhere. We had just missed it. And I was just thinking that Krishna worked through this colleague of mine to get me out of that building. As we were walking down I didn't verbally chant but I was trying to think of Krishna--to some extent. We walked about forty blocks down and most people who were walking with us were very orderly. But nobody was speaking. Everybody was silent.

Then we walked down into our hotel. We were sitting in the bar in the entrance. There was a television so we watched, because we didn't really know what had happened and who had done it. On the television we heard that the Pentagon was also hit. Everyone was stunned. Many of the people there were taking shelter of alcohol.

About fifteen minutes later a person who works for Morgan Stanley in the South Tower--he was on the sixty-third floor and he managed to escape. When he came there, he was really shaking. He was around my age. He was shaking. He said, "I was there. I was right in the building." He was telling us his story. When the first tower was hit, most of the people in the South Tower started evacuating, but there was a message on the intercom that they should return to their desks. He said that there was no way he was going to stay, and something inside him told him to just keep on going. When he was walking down the staircase he saw a fat lady, and she was having a heart attack. There was another lady who was pregnant. I felt very upset and asked him what happened to them. He said, "I don't know. I just kept on going. Something inside said, 'Keep on going.' I don't know if they made it or not."

Actually New York after that was just not the same. The whole vibrant mood was lost. One or two days after the terrorist attack there were many bomb threats. I don't know who it was--whether it was the same organization or just pranksters. We were staying in mid-Manhattan and it was 10.30 pm. I was taking rest. All of a sudden we heard the hotel siren and the hotel people told us to evacuate. For me it was the last straw. I was thinking, "What more?" It was very intense. I was in my nightwear. I was thinking this was too much. So we had to walk down the stairs again and we were walking outside. I felt so alone. I felt really alone. And I just had my beads, and I was chanting. I was just chanting and crying a lot. At that stage I was thinking, "It's just Krishna. It's just Krishna there." Srila Prabhupada used to say that you should chant as though you're a helpless child. It's the first time I experienced that. I had only the holy names--I didn't even have proper clothing, I didn't have anything--just my japa beads and the holy names.

Then we walked down. All the people in the area were walking, and many of them were crying. I think it was too much for everyone to handle.

I also had a few nightmares regarding the whole incident. In one week I had three nightmares. But one nightmare, in retrospect when I think of it, taught me a lot. I don't know where I was, but there was a creature coming towards me trying to kill me. I was trying to defend myself, as Draupadi initially did. I was throwing objects at it and it just didn't work. The creature was coming towards me stronger and stronger. Then I stopped throwing things at it and just started screaming, "Krishna! Krishna!" and this creature stopped and laughed. He said, "You do not know Krishna," and walked away. When I turned I saw my spiritual master standing next to me. Now when I think of it, it's true, I do not know Krishna, but I have my spiritual master who knows Srila Prabhupada and Krishna.

>From the experience I learned a lot--to be more dependent on the Vaisnavas and to take shelter of the holy names. I chant so mechanically. This incident taught me to focus on the holy names and chant with feeling.

Hare Krishna.

[The transcript has been edited for clarity and accuracy. --GS]

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